Scoop draw for competitive shooting

[waktasz]

I do it, but I also shoot a kydex holster in Limited division. I probably wouldn't do it with a race holster

[Ssanders224]

10 minutes ago, waktasz said:

I do it, but I also shoot a kydex holster in Limited division. I probably wouldn't do it with a race holster

 

I bet you would. And maybe even a tick faster. 

  

[waktasz]

I used to use a Race Master. That thing has clouded my judgement against race holsters. 

That and ROing major matches and seeing so many people give themselves wedgies or nearly shoot their toes off 

[Ssanders224]

1 minute ago, waktasz said:

I used to use a Race Master. That thing has clouded my judgement against race holsters. 

That and ROing major matches and seeing so many people give themselves wedgies or nearly shoot their toes off 

 

Idk. I’ve used a Racemaster since like a week after they were released. I’ve literally never had my gun hang up bad enough to disrupt my draw. If it has ever happened, it was while practicing and I can’t remember it. Granted, I’ve always said they take a bit a cleaning and maintenance now and then. 

[CheekyChung]

I fiddled with it on my STI Limited on my DAA Race Master.

I average maybe .1-.2 seconds faster on a scoop draw to first shot, but also about 10-15% of the time I have a bad grip so saved time is lost regripping.

[pskys2]

The advantage of a scoop draw from hands at side is you save that mili second of securing the grip by the web of the hand.  The disadvantage is on any other draw you have to secure the grip by the web of the hand, so you are forcing yourself to use 2 different types of draw or you waste time going down and scooping back up. 

I never liked it due to it feeling less secure, it just feels like the gun is moving from the holster before I secure the grip.   I feared of popping the gun up out of the holster.

 

It may not be the type of draw that is beating you.  It may be that the other competitors are reacting quicker to the buzzer.

It takes training and focus to react to the beginning tone of the buzzer, rather than to the sound of the buzzer which most people do.  

The difference can easily be .2 seconds.  When I take longer than a few months lay off from practice it's the first thing I notice.  I have to work at hearing and reacting to that first tone again.

Edited July 5, 2019 by pskys2

[mlmiller1]

Worked with junior shooter a couple of weeks ago.  By the end of practice she had made a couple of .85s with called A hits at about 6yds & several low .9s....  all conventional draw... no scoop.  How much faster do you want to go?  Lol.  We started practice she was averaging 1.35....

[waktasz]

In the 60s 

[rowdyb]

a quick hit at 6 yards has less to do with the draw and more to do with your confidence and index

[elguapo]

2 hours ago, mlmiller1 said:

Worked with junior shooter a couple of weeks ago.  By the end of practice she had made a couple of .85s with called A hits at about 6yds & several low .9s....  all conventional draw... no scoop.  How much faster do you want to go?  Lol.  We started practice she was averaging 1.35....

 

A single shot doesn't mean much.  What were her splits and where did the second shot go?

[elguapo]

On 7/4/2019 at 4:02 PM, darks1d3 said:

I just took the Eric Grauffel training course this past weekend.  We had this same discussion. He basically said he doesn't use the scoop draw because it doesn't guarantee a perfect grip every time.  If he can't replicate a technique with 100% consistency in a match under stress he won't use it. 

 

That's how I look at it and why I don't do a scoop draw.

[Ssanders224]

20 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

That's how I look at it and why I don't do a scoop draw.

 

That’s subjective. Im not Eric, but I’m 10x more consistent “scooping” than not. 

I never “learned” to scoop, or practiced it. It’s just what happen when I started shooting. 

Trying to not “scoop” feels very awkward to me. Whether it’s my Limited gun from a Race master, or a Glock from kydex.

[elguapo]

11 hours ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

That’s subjective. Im not Eric, but I’m 10x more consistent “scooping” than not. 

I never “learned” to scoop, or practiced it. It’s just what happen when I started shooting. 

Trying to not “scoop” feels very awkward to me. Whether it’s my Limited gun from a Race master, or a Glock from kydex.

 

Not subjective at all.  I can measure my losses in time and points down from a less than secure draw that occurs if I try to scoop the gun out of the holster.  Not to mention the mental distraction of knowing I have a screwed up grip on my pistol for at least until I have to reload (or waste even more time trying to fix it during a transition).

 

Could I learn it?  I'm sure I could.  Do I want to spend the time and money to do so?  Not particularly, since there are other skills I need to master that will net me bigger gains in HF per stage than a draw that happens at most once.

 

Maybe you meant to say "that's individual"?  If so, I agree.

Edited July 6, 2019 by elguapo

[Ssanders224]

1 hour ago, elguapo said:

 

Not subjective at all.  I can measure my losses in time and points down from a less than secure draw that occurs if I try to scoop the gun out of the holster.  Not to mention the mental distraction of knowing I have a screwed up grip on my pistol for at least until I have to reload (or waste even more time trying to fix it during a transition).

 

Could I learn it?  I'm sure I could.  Do I want to spend the time and money to do so?  Not particularly, since there are other skills I need to master that will net me bigger gains in HF per stage than a draw that happens at most once.

 

Maybe you meant to say "that's individual"?  If so, I agree.

 

I was referring to “he said he doesn’t use the scoop because it doesn’t guarantee a perfect grip every time”.

 

He may have been referring to just HIS experience with it. 

 

If he was applying that statement to scoop draw in general, that’s when I refer to it as subjective. 

[Gary1911A1]

Tried the scoop draw at the range today. Sometimes it worked well, but my draws were to inconsistent for me. Maybe with a lot more practice.

[elguapo]

7 hours ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

I was referring to “he said he doesn’t use the scoop because it doesn’t guarantee a perfect grip every time”.

 

He may have been referring to just HIS experience with it. 

 

If he was applying that statement to scoop draw in general, that’s when I refer to it as subjective. 

 

There's nothing subjective about Eric's experience.  He can tell when he gets a good grip and when he doesn't.  It is objective and observable by looking at his hand position on the gun and by evaluating hits and splits.  Nobody can tell him "no brah, you just think you got a bad grip on the gun".

 

 

[Ssanders224]

9 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

There's nothing subjective about Eric's experience.  He can tell when he gets a good grip and when he doesn't.  It is objective and observable by looking at his hand position on the gun and by evaluating hits and splits.  Nobody can tell him "no brah, you just think you got a bad grip on the gun".

 

 

 

If he was referring to HIS personal experience with it you are correct. 

 

Like I said previously, If he was referring to scoop draw in general (as it applies to everyone), then yes, that statement is subjective. 

 

I took it originally as he was making a blanket statement about scooping (that it is not consistent). Not necessarily only how it applies to him personally. 

[pskys2]

On 7/5/2019 at 7:38 PM, Ssanders224 said:

 

That’s subjective. Im not Eric, but I’m 10x more consistent “scooping” than not. 

I never “learned” to scoop, or practiced it. It’s just what happen when I started shooting. 

Trying to not “scoop” feels very awkward to me. Whether it’s my Limited gun from a Race master, or a Glock from kydex.

Just curious with a wrists above shoulders/surrender draw do you still drop your hand below the gun and scoop it out on the upstroke?

Or do you snatch it out from the top and not spend time to drop below the holster?

[Ssanders224]

5 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Just curious with a wrists above shoulders/surrender draw do you still drop your hand below the gun and scoop it out on the upstroke?

Or do you snatch it out from the top and not spend time to drop below the holster?

 

Web of hand straight into beavertail and go! 

[pskys2]

33 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

Web of hand straight into beavertail and go! 

So you use 2 different techniques on the draw.

Good to have multiple quivers in the case.

[Ssanders224]

On 7/7/2019 at 4:44 PM, pskys2 said:

So you use 2 different techniques on the draw.

Good to have multiple quivers in the case.

 

I don't really look at it that way, but I guess you could say that. 

I just try not to over think it. I get the gun in my hand and out of the holster the best/quickest way possible (for me). How that happens may change a little depending on the position I'm in. 

[GunBugBit]

On 4/19/2019 at 6:15 AM, xdf3 said:

The second step would be pre-cocking (right term? --- pulling the trigger to remove the pretravel) the hammer while you draw (while aiming the gun in a safe zone).

Lord no.  Never.

[bimmer1980]

Vogel can do pretty good scoop draw´s. But i´ve never seen him do one in a match.

[ehowell12]

So much overthinking here. React to the "Baa" part of the Beep, move with gusto, and train to bring the gun up to a perfect sight picture every. single. time. 

I think most will be surprised what would happen if they just let their subconscious take over certain tasks (assuming safe gun handling skills are already as solid as concrete). 

That being said, place lots of emphasis in removing ANY wasted motion in any movement - in this case a long "back down" part of a "non-scoop" draw.

Minimize it - absolutely. Do away with it - fast, but not as consistent. 

[CHA-LEE]

I have performed consistent .60 - .65 draws using both draw methods out of normal kydex holsters. For the game of USPSA I prefer the over the top method of draw as we are forced into abnormal hand positions quite often where your hands are above the gun. I would rather have one method of drawing the gun regardless of hand position and an over the top draw does exactly that. Less decisions or distractions during a match are a good thing for me. That being said, I have seen several top level shooters use scoop draws with great success or a mixture of scoop and over the top depending on the hand position at the start.

 

One method really isn't "Better" than the other in the grand scheme of overall practical shooting performance. Pick a draw stroke method, optimize the mechanics of the process then practice the s#!t out of it until you can deploy it subconsciously with solid consistency. That is what is important.