Scoop draw for competitive shooting

[JoeSoop]

I have a decent (standard) draw in USPSA in which I push my hand down and index my thump under the beaver tail before drawing the gun. I have been watching guys beat me off the line at tournaments utilizing a scoop draw and I want  to learn. I have searched and cannot find any good training videos or images on teaching the scoop draw out of a competitor OWB holster (I found the video by Robin Brown doing scoop from concealment, not what I am looking for). Anyone come across anything for this? Thanks.

[rowdyb]

when you are making ready and about to the end of the process

• holster the gun and leave that hand on it.
• take your other hand and place with where you index it to on the draw. usually somewhere between the belt and bottom of your breast bone (zyphoid)
• confirm the feeling of being in these two positions while reminding yourself of positive things, controlling your breathing and remembering to grip strong
• as your support hand moves to naturally at your side or whatever the start it, take your thumb over the beaver tail, keep your gun hand reasonably close to the position it was in as you gripped the gun. your hand will almost look like you are making a child like toy gun
• slide your gun hand down the back of your holster with your middle finger dragging along its (the holster's) back side, to the start position.
• when the beep goes off reverse this process. support hand goes rapidly to its index spot to eventually meet the other hand and gun, forming the strong grip asap
• gun hand comes up, pinky and ring and middle finger curled up, finger indexes out straigh (making the gun shape) and thumb out of the way.
• as those three fingers hit the front strap of the gun, they start lifting it out of the holster.
• aaaasssss you're lifting the gun your thumb goes over the beaver tail and you confirm the grip with that hand. if you do a pause with your gun hand as it touches to get your thumb in position you are losing much of the time advantage of this draw.
• two hands meet as normal as you make a full grip, extend to fire and get the appropriate sight alignment and picture.

[rowdyb]

12 minutes ago, JoeSoop said:

I have a decent (standard) draw in USPSA in which I push my hand down and index my thump under the beaver tail before drawing the gun. I have been watching guys beat me off the line at tournaments utilizing a scoop draw and I want  to learn. I have searched and cannot find any good training videos or images on teaching the scoop draw out of a competitor OWB holster (I found the video by Robin Brown doing scoop from concealment, not what I am looking for). Anyone come across anything for this? Thanks.

it is not supposed to be visibly step a then step b then step c. continuous fluidity even if is described as a series of steps.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I took a course with Max Michel in 2007, and he suggested

that the way you are currently drawing is superior to the "scoop draw".

 

Don't know if he's since changed his mind - but he preferred attaining

that grip first, and drawing 2nd.

 

Don't forget, it's NOT only how fast is your FIRST shot, but also your

SECOND shot - if you get off a very fast first shot, but then have to

adjust your grip for the 2nd shot, you've lost time or an A.

[rowdyb]

I'm willing to bet it is better for his continuity for his steel challenge draw as well to always do it that way.

[JoeSoop]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

it is not supposed to be visibly step a then step b then step c. continuous fluidity even if is described as a series of steps.

Fair enough. I just figured it could be broken down like that like Miculek breaks down his draw into a, then b, then c.

[JoeSoop]

46 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

I took a course with Max Michel in 2007, and he suggested

that the way you are currently drawing is superior to the "scoop draw".

 

Don't know if he's since changed his mind - but he preferred attaining

that grip first, and drawing 2nd.

 

Don't forget, it's NOT only how fast is your FIRST shot, but also your

SECOND shot - if you get off a very fast first shot, but then have to

adjust your grip for the 2nd shot, you've lost time or an A.

I agree with your assessment and I would practice until I could do it with the same grip I get (consistently) that I do with my current draw, if I could not get that grip consistently, I would ditch it altogether. There are VERY good USPSA shooters that do the scoop draw and are successful with. Like anything I think it’s just a matter of repetition. Not sure, but I want to try and find out

Edited April 19, 2019 by JoeSoop

[rowdyb]

1 minute ago, JoeSoop said:

Fair enough. I just figured it could be broken down like that like Miculek breaks down his draw into a, then b, then c.

That's for learning, not doing.

[rowdyb]

Need a video? This isn't about the draw per se but you me doing them in the manner I describe. Or trying to.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by rowdyb

[JoeSoop]

6 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Need a video? 

Video would be nice. I think I have the basics, but trying to compare what I am practicing with someone who has mastered it. Here is a decent one...just not consistent yet: 

 

[JoeSoop]

13 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Need a video? This isn't about the draw per se but you me doing them in the manner I describe. Or trying to.

 

 

Nice...very quick.

[outerlimits]

doing it from hands above shoulders is a whole other game...

[JoeSoop]

1 minute ago, outerlimits said:

doing it from hands above shoulders is a whole other game...

Completely agree.

[rowdyb]

Surrender draw I just rotate straight to the back strap 

[daytona955i]

Stoeger has some par times in his dry fire book that breaks down the draw into it's components. 

 

Odds are, the time you're spending attaining your firing grip isn't necessarily what's got you down on your draw.

 

How fast are you reacting to the beep? With some it seems like they don't start moving until the beep is done, others have their hand around the grip and break kydex before the beep is even over.

 

You can practice by just slapping the timer and using a random delay.

 

The time to actually get the gun clear of the holster and into some kind of grip is important as well and what you're talking about. You can break that down by starting with your hand on the grip and reacting to the beep and getting your grip together cleanly and repeatable.

 

The last is the step that will help you all over your game. Getting the sights aligned, aimed, and calling the shot. It's a skill you use on every shot, but especially entering new positions and big transitions.

 

You start with the gun in front of you where you get your grip together.

Edited April 19, 2019 by daytona955i

[elguapo]

The draw is a critical factor for fast, repeatable first shot hits.  The scoop draw is incompatible with clearing a normal concealment garment (closed front untucked shirt).  I carry concealed every day.  Because of that I don't even want to try to learn two different draws.

[levellinebrad]

I like the scoop draw. I was slow on this one but I have been doing it so long that it just feels natural 

[Jamese35]

I have worked with the scoop draw this last year trying hard to learn it,now that being said I can burn the first shot fast with the scoop with a consistant .72 is time with the first shot in the A zone at ten yards, that's where the good stops. I would never get that rock solid grip and never seamed to get high enough on the gun. It would constantly be off and slower on my splits and I would have multiple shots down. I have now gone back to the way Bob Vogel had thought me to draw by just coming past the gun enough to slam my hand down on it. This doesn't cost me alot of time as I'm constantly hitting .85 first shots and all my second shots are A zone as well. (depending on the target)

 This is just my milage and others will be different. 

 

[MJinPA]

Here is a slow mo video of my daughter doing one. Note that her right hand pinky, ring, and middle fingers are curled while at rest and there is one fluid motion as she moves her thumb over the beaver tail. She rarely misses her grip but also knows to adjust before firing the first shot.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[allamericanbp]

Awesome advice and videos! Keep them coming.

[xdf3]

I think a good way to practice being faster, would be, AT FIRST, just shoot anywhere. Draw and shoot (in a safe zone), without aiming at anything. That way, you will focus 100% on speed.

 

The second step would be pre-cocking (right term? --- pulling the trigger to remove the pretravel) the hammer while you draw (while aiming the gun in a safe zone).

 

The third step is actually aiming at something, doing all the previous steps. A 1 second draw should be doable (at 10 yards) without any specific technique. 

[elguapo]

16 minutes ago, xdf3 said:

The second step would be pre-cocking (right term? --- pulling the trigger to remove the pretravel) the hammer while you draw (while aiming the gun in a safe zone).

 

This is a good way to get a gift certificate to Dairy Queen

[xdf3]

Just now, elguapo said:

 

This is a good way to get a gift certificate to Dairy Queen

 

Explain. Or read again what I have written, if you have questions I can explain 

[elguapo]

1 minute ago, xdf3 said:

 

Explain. Or read again what I have written, if you have questions I can explain 

 

I know exactly what you're talking about.  Feel free to stage the trigger all you like.  I know how to do it and know the risks first hand which is why I pass.

[DKorn]

As long as you don’t get on the trigger until the gun is absolutely in a safe direction, I can’t see how it could result in a DQ. Get on it too much earlier, on the other hand, and you definitely could send yourself home early. 

 

Remember, if someone cooks one off early into the dirt below a target, under USPSA rules that is not an AD, it’s a miss, assuming they don’t make it up. If the round hits within 10 feet of the shooter and the target is further away, then it’s an AD and a DQ.