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Sight movement: Dry fire vs. live

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I've been doing a bit more dry fire recently (as opposed to zero) due to moving to a new platform and trying to get used to it.

 

I thought I had gotten to a pretty good place while dry firing. It seemed like the sights were settling in and I wasn't getting a lot of disturbance from my trigger press.

 

Then at last nights match (first time I've used the new gun under pressure) it was painfully obvious that what had been a reasonably stable sight picture the day before was now wobbling all over the place even before I got going on the trigger.

 

Then I realized this wasn't the first time I've noticed this difference. During dry fire my sights aren't moving much as compared to live fire when they are noticeably more active.

 

Anybody else notice this? Any suggestions as to how to deal with it?

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go to the range. alternate between dryfire and livefire. figure out what you are doing different between the two. stop doing that.

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16 hours ago, ddc said:

Any suggestions as to how to deal with it?

 

Pay more attention to what is going on in dryfire. The flaw is there, it's up to you to be perceptive enough to see it. Just the fact that you only recently started dryfiring is a red flag. There is no substitute for putting the work in every single day for extended periods of time. I tend to tell people in your situation to dryfire every day for 6 months and then come back to me if you're still having the same problem.

 

As a side note, I can't recommend a dot highly enough for this particular problem. It is far and away the best tool for highlighting your mistakes.

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Posted (edited)

Explain your dry fire sessions?

 

Are you just drawing to one target while standing still?  

 

Or are you drawing/moving/transitoning to multiple targets like you have to when shooting a stage?

 

Also, you might need to take a hard look and see if you're being honest with yourself with what your doing when dry firing?  Are you just slinging the gun up while trying to beat the buzzer? Not really worrying about sight picture?

 

Are you calling shots when dry firing?  It's different than live fire since the sight doesn't lift but you gotta see the appropriate sight pic for each shot and know if you're on the right spot on the target before pulling the trigger? 

 

If you're not doing those things during dry fire, because it's not for score, or it doesn't count, or your trying to beat a par time, that's gonna show up in live fire. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by B_RAD

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Get someone or set up a camera and record your dry fire session and critique yourself in comparison to doing the same practice live.  Study the video, discover, resolve.

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Thanks for the feedback. Much to consider.

 

I am going to start by taking a harder look at analyzing happening during dry fire. And then alternating dry fire and live fire at the range to compare.

(using the camera suggestion also)

 

And do much more dryfire... everyday.

 

Thanks so much.

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Are you gripping as hard as you can during dry fire (and live)?  If not, start to.  Or maybe it's just nerves/adrenaline during the match...in which case "just relax, man"

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Yeah... in addition to everything else presented here I think some "just relax man" would help as well.... lol, thanks.

 

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What are the old and new platforms ?

 

Are you a C, or B shooter ?

 

How far are your targets when you dry fire ?   Size of targets ?

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To dryfire practice transistions and teach my eyes to move from target to the target with the sights to follow, I place 6" paper plates scattered across a wall about 12' from my shooting position.

 

Someone on the forum recommended the "Matt Hopkins" drill.  Similar to what I was doing but instead of paper plates, they were using a target paster.   The much smaller target greatly increased the difficulty level and the effort need to do the drill with an honest sight picture.

 

Its something you might consider.  Include some very small targets in your dryfire session.  I think it will help me.

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In your dryfire training, what are you using for targets?  I went to small 1" dots (Aim small, miss small)  if you can practice at speed with smaller targets, you should have no trouble indexing on larger target areas.

 

35 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

 

Someone on the forum recommended the "Matt Hopkins" drill.  Similar to what I was doing but instead of paper plates, they were using a target paster.   The much smaller target greatly increased the difficulty level and the effort need to do the drill with an honest sight picture.

 

Flatland, I had used the Hopkins with great success.5aafea51d97b5_hopkins3(2).thumb.jpg.f1a2c55348431d5127dc2e9b5b9b1ae4.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Old platform: M&P 5"

New platform: X5

Classification: C class production at about 55%

Dry fire target size: 1/3 size at 5 yards (max indoor distance available)

Grip: weak hand grip challenged; bad tennis elbow in that arm

 

Thanks for the continuing feedback.

 

I did have a range session where I alternated live fire and dry fire. When I can duplicate my dry fire trigger pull the bullet goes where I want it.

During Sundays match I feel like I had some positive carry over from that practice.

I think when live firing I am letting my strong hand grip assume too much of the grip burden and that is affecting my trigger pull.

I feel like my trigger finger muscles are fighting the other muscles in my trigger hand.

Edited by ddc

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Use dry fire first to develop trigger control.  Don't worry about drawing to begin with.

 

Spend some time each day fry firing with the specific purpose of dropping the hammer without any sight movement.

 

Several hundred snaps daily.

 

Once you can consistently drop the hammer with no sight movement, add drawing to the  regimen.  Still = no sight movement when the  hammer falls.

 

Trigger control!

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On 3/14/2018 at 10:17 PM, ddc said:

wobbling all over the place even before I got going on the trigger.

 

Did you notice if the bad shots followed a pattern. Like all left, high, etc. That might help you troubleshoot the problem. Also, fatigue can be an issue, esp with your grip. When I get tired, grip is the first thing to go. That or not focusing my attention on exactly where I want the bullet to go.

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16 hours ago, Guy Neill said:

Several hundred snaps daily.

 

No damage to the gun from 100,000 snaps/year ?

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Yes - the firing pin spring is destroyed.

 

You need to change it periodically or dedicate one (or more) to dry fire versus the same spring all the  time.

 

Check the firing pin stop in case of cracks

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I don't mean to be crass, but sometimes blunt feedback is what works best. 

 

Your dryfire stinks.  You should be gripping the gun harder, and also pressing the trigger harder (one of the most common things overlooked by competitors in general). It's very easy to fool yourself into thinking everything is fine by using dainty trigger presses at home, but then pressing the trigger - for lack of a better term - "for real" at the range. 

 

Stoeger's rule of thumb is to press the trigger 50% harder than you think is necessary during dryfire. I highly recommend that. Once your practice becomes more honest, the results become better. 

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5 hours ago, Sliv2 said:

I don't mean to be crass, but sometimes blunt feedback is what works best. 

 

Your dryfire stinks.  You should be gripping the gun harder, and also pressing the trigger harder (one of the most common things overlooked by competitors in general). It's very easy to fool yourself into thinking everything is fine by using dainty trigger presses at home, but then pressing the trigger - for lack of a better term - "for real" at the range. 

 

Stoeger's rule of thumb is to press the trigger 50% harder than you think is necessary during dryfire. I highly recommend that. Once your practice becomes more honest, the results become better. 

 

lol...this probably isn't a good sport for people with thin skins...

 

halfway through reading your posting I was starting to puff up my chest and start typing; probably something stupid.

 

But you know what? Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to look into this more. It kind of makes sense to me. Any chance you have a pointer to a Stoeger video/book where he talks about this?

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10 hours ago, ddc said:

 

lol...this probably isn't a good sport for people with thin skins...

 

halfway through reading your posting I was starting to puff up my chest and start typing; probably something stupid.

 

But you know what? Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to look into this more. It kind of makes sense to me. Any chance you have a pointer to a Stoeger video/book where he talks about this?

Truly no offense intended. I'm glad you, ultimately, did not take it that way. 

 

I will have to check my books when I get home later today. I know he talks about it on a podcast episode or two, but certainly don't remember the specific episode number(s). He's very easy to get in touch with if you want to hear it straight from the horse's mouth.

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2 hours ago, Sliv2 said:

Truly no offense intended. I'm glad you, ultimately, did not take it that way. 

 

I will have to check my books when I get home later today. I know he talks about it on a podcast episode or two, but certainly don't remember the specific episode number(s). He's very easy to get in touch with if you want to hear it straight from the horse's mouth.

Yes, none taken for sure, thanks again for the feedback.

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Sounds like your not dry firing like you live Fire. For example if you’re not gripping your gun Just as hard in  dryfire  like you do during live fire you’re just practicing bad fundamentals. You need to perform everything the same . Think of dry fire for what it is (shooting without ammo) Obviously there’s no recoil but after shooting your gun enough in live fire and really pushing yourself You’ll have an idea how your gun and sights will behave and take that into account . And when your dryfiring just make sure you’re practicing getting acceptable sight pictures and such when your transitioning or etc. 

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Posted (edited)

I first learned about the Gip from the creator, Matt Seibert…former General Manager of Colonel Cooper’s Gunsite Academy and creator of the Insight Deadly Accuracy program, ShowBox VidMate Mobdro

Edited by athman8

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On 3/21/2018 at 11:55 PM, ddc said:

 

lol...this probably isn't a good sport for people with thin skins...

 

halfway through reading your posting I was starting to puff up my chest and start typing; probably something stupid.

 

But you know what? Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to look into this more. It kind of makes sense to me. Any chance you have a pointer to a Stoeger video/book where he talks about this?

Pretty sure he mentioned it on a podcast in the past couple months.

Think it's in "Practical Pistol".

Know it's on page 45 of "Dryfire Reloaded".

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