sigsauerfan Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 hi all. i'm loading on a XL650 using dillon dies except the crimp die which is a lee. i'm presently loading zero 147JHP peas over mixed headstamps. my problem is that , whatever i tried, the loaded rounds coal is driving me crazy ; it's the first time in years of reloading on this machine that my coal variation is that much important. i've settled the seater to 1.130 but i get 1.125 to 1.135 even 1.137 on some units. i'm loading 40 as well with zeros 180 JHP i never walked into such variations even with mixed headstamps. i cleaned the crimp die,reinstalled it as well as the decaping-resizing die with no improvement in consistency . steam is now exiting my nostrils LOL. i know i will get the answer that mixed headstamps may result in this kind of inconsistent coal but i'm mixing brass since years and i never got more than 0.001 to 0.003 coal variation . now i witness 0.008 to 0.010 coal variation which is too much for me. however, it's the first time i load zero JHP 147 in 9mm. i'm more used to fmj. could it be the culprit?...i'm asking this question while to me it doesn't make sens. thoughts ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeinctown Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 Are you using lube on the brass? I would get as much as .007 on coated lead but lubing with one shot got me around .003 which is more than good enough. When you are setting the seating die are you placing a normal case in station 1 so that there is even pressure on the shellplate? Are some handle pulls a bit harder than others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 I had the same issue on initial setup, then read on here to make sure there is brass loaded in every station when setting the seating depth and crimp. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 Try flipping over the seat die insert... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 Full plate since partial plate rounds will be shorter. Lube cases. Don't keep stopping to measure. Pull the handle the same every time. And above all mixed headstamp will cause this. Sort out a hundred of same headstamp, lube them, start loading, discard the first few, then pull the handle 50 times without stopping, measure those and see if they are closer to the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevrofreak Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 48 minutes ago, ChuckS said: Try flipping over the seat die insert... This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 Differing case wall thickness, due to mixed brass, requires varying amounts of pressure to seat bullets to the same depth. As suggested above, try loading with same brand brass and see if that alleviates your problem. Also, a difference in the diameter of the bullet can have the same result as differing case wall thickness. Check a reasonable # of the bullets you are trying to see if they are basically the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glassblower Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 What Steve said and adding this...... check that those that show the most variation have the same bullet profile (not just the bullet diameter but the shape of the nose) as those with the best OAL. I know Zero makes quality stuff but variations can creep in with some batches. I experienced profile variations with another manufacturer that caused substantial variations in OAL. It drove me bonkers. Also, when I added a Mr Bulletfeeder to my rig, OAL variations got even less, likely because it sets the bullet in the same place every time, i.e. straight up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamge Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 One of the keys to reloading is coming to peace with 'good enough.' Do 10, measure and average, and call the average your COAL. Shoot thousands of them and don't think too much about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) My ammo's OAL varied between 1.108 and 1.117 in the current batch which I loaded today. Loaded on a 650: 125 BBI 3.80 gr Prima V 1.110"-1.115" CCI Magnum Walther Q5 Match: Avg of 10: 1097 fps Es 22 Sd 6 Pf 137.1 M&P 4.25" Avg of 8: 1048 FPS Es 11 Sd 4 Pf 131.0 See how tight the extreme spread and standard deviation numbers are? I'll do some accuracy testing with it and if it groups well, I won't worry about the OAL variation at all. Edited September 10, 2017 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDescribe Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 I don't use Dillon dies, but I am pretty sure Dillon has a reversible anvil, where one side is flat/solid, and the other side is hollow/concave. The flat side presses down against the nose of the bullet, and the hollow side contacts below the nose of the bullet on the ogive. Since most variation in the length of the actual bullet (just the projectile itself) occurs at the nose and OAL is measured to the nose, the flat side of the anvil (that seats from the nose) will produce the most consistent OAL, and the hollow side the least consistent. That's something for you to check. IF it turns out that you are seating with the hollow side of the anvil, keep it that way. The hollow side, while having less consistent OAL, will create a more consistent jump distance from the bullet shoulder to the rifling, AND a more consistent seating depth. Those two things have real ballistic effects. OAL, the distance from the headstamp to the nose, does not. If you are already seating with the flat side of the anvil, I would recommend you pull the cartridges after the seating die and measure them before running them through the crimp die to see if the crimp die is moving the bullet. If it's not, I would recommend readjusting your seating die. Not just the anvil, the whole die -- back it out a little and readjust the anvil to where you want it. I've seen that be a problem. I couldn't figure out WHY it was a problem, but backing the seating die out a little fixed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uewpew Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 I wouldn't worry about +/-.005 variation in your OAL. As long as they all pass the plunk test, feed, group, & make PF they are probably fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgh Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 You already did the clean the-press-thing so that is done. Do what IDescribe suggests with the seating stem. He describes it quite well and also points out that the variation you see may not matter at all as long as the round feeds. Also, measure your bullets and cases and see how much variation is in them. I found variation in COAL that could be traced to variation in the bullets and/or cases. (You might as well weigh the bullets, too.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigsauerfan Posted September 10, 2017 Author Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, ChuckS said: Try flipping over the seat die insert... ya.....good idea.haven't tried this before.. Quote Full plate since partial plate rounds will be shorter. Lube cases. Don't keep stopping to measure. Pull the handle the same every time. And above all mixed headstamp will cause this. Sort out a hundred of same headstamp, lube them, start loading, discard the first few, then pull the handle 50 times without stopping, measure those and see if they are closer to the same.4 all of this Sarge. i'm using the same ''''recipe'''' since years and i've never been plagued with something like this even with mixed headstamps ; i can't explain. of course i'm spraying one shot on my cases it makes the machine action so silky smooth,i would never load without it. , and yes of course the shell plate is always full when i set my seater die . thanks all for the replies. as usual, BRIAN ENOS crowd responded with very helpfull insights and suggestions. i tested the '''ill''' rounds yesterday at the range and while the accuracy isn't that bad, sure enough i got some flyers that i wouldn't normally get with a much consistent COAL. i'm gonna flip the seater insert to see how it goes today and will get back with an update. if it work out good i ow you all a Edited September 10, 2017 by sigsauerfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigsauerfan Posted September 10, 2017 Author Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, glassblower said: What Steve said and adding this...... check that those that show the most variation have the same bullet profile (not just the bullet diameter but the shape of the nose) as those with the best OAL. I know Zero makes quality stuff but variations can creep in with some batches. I experienced profile variations with another manufacturer that caused substantial variations in OAL. It drove me bonkers. Also, when I added a Mr Bulletfeeder to my rig, OAL variations got even less, likely because it sets the bullet in the same place every time, i.e. straight up. yes,i was suspecting this phenom with the JHP since the '''petals'''' that makes HP's opening on impact may induce false readings-measurements ; so after spinning many rounds between the caliper's jaws to see how it affect the readings......came to the conclusion it doesn't affect more than a + - 0.001 even less than that,and as i said, i'm loading zero's 180 JHP in 40 since at least 8 years and never ever got this problem.....i'm starting to believes a witch made its way in my house and she settled home in my man cave LOL normally with a well settled up machine and all the cases lubed with ''one shot''' i shouldn't get more than 0.002 difference in COAL even with mixed headstamps....at least, that's my experience with my XL650 . Edited September 10, 2017 by sigsauerfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigsauerfan Posted September 10, 2017 Author Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, IDescribe said: I don't use Dillon dies, but I am pretty sure Dillon has a reversible anvil, where one side is flat/solid, and the other side is hollow/concave. The flat side presses down against the nose of the bullet, and the hollow side contacts below the nose of the bullet on the ogive. Since most variation in the length of the actual bullet (just the projectile itself) occurs at the nose and OAL is measured to the nose, the flat side of the anvil (that seats from the nose) will produce the most consistent OAL, and the hollow side the least consistent. That's something for you to check. IF it turns out that you are seating with the hollow side of the anvil, keep it that way. The hollow side, while having less consistent OAL, will create a more consistent jump distance from the bullet shoulder to the rifling, AND a more consistent seating depth. Those two things have real ballistic effects. OAL, the distance from the headstamp to the nose, does not. If you are already seating with the flat side of the anvil, I would recommend you pull the cartridges after the seating die and measure them before running them through the crimp die to see if the crimp die is moving the bullet. If it's not, I would recommend readjusting your seating die. Not just the anvil, the whole die -- back it out a little and readjust the anvil to where you want it. I've seen that be a problem. I couldn't figure out WHY it was a problem, but backing the seating die out a little fixed it. yes,this theory is quite possible . hollow points has a much slimmer profile than FMJ's and i thought it might be that the seater insert is maybe not well suited to HP's. i'm gonna try to flip the seating insert upside-down to see if it provides more consistency....i will also try a direct measurement right after the seating die,then immediately after the crimping die to see if the crimper could be my problem. thanks for this reply, very insightfull. Edited September 10, 2017 by sigsauerfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigsauerfan Posted September 10, 2017 Author Share Posted September 10, 2017 please mods,i don't know why my thread is duplicated...could you merge the answers i got here with the twin where i got 12 replies? thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 16 minutes ago, sigsauerfan said: please mods,i don't know why my thread is duplicated...could you merge the answers i got here with the twin where i got 12 replies? thanks. Merged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigsauerfan Posted September 10, 2017 Author Share Posted September 10, 2017 thanks grumpy..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheeljack Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) I'm using a Lee set up. I have used Lee Resizing Lubricant, diluted 1:10 with alcohol to lube cases before I resize and remove the primers. The Lee product sound like Hornady Unique Case lube. I have the same COAL "problem". What are your thoughts on spraying the BULLETS with the diluted lubricant and letting them dry and then seat them??? Hurricane Irma will be here tomorrow, so I don't know if I'll be on line for a while. Edited September 10, 2017 by Wheeljack add news Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcc7x7 Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 Check that the bolts holding the press to the bench have not loosened up. Seems like everything else has been mentioned?!?!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheeljack Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Jcc7x7, it does seem that way. Other things that bother: I measure the COAL for 10 rounds. Write down the measure. Measure the same 10 again & write down the answers. Do this for a 3rd time. For me, the measures differ in almost the bullets. Seat 10 rounds, measure, seat them again and see if the COAL changes. After all this, I realized you have to do the best you can, but it doesn't mean it's going to turn out exactly the way you want. Just work toward a livable average spread. I'd say a .005 difference is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 On 9/10/2017 at 7:14 AM, sigsauerfan said: ya.....good idea.haven't tried this before.. all of this Sarge. i'm using the same ''''recipe'''' since years and i've never been plagued with something like this even with mixed headstamps ; i can't explain. of course i'm spraying one shot on my cases it makes the machine action so silky smooth,i would never load without it. , and yes of course the shell plate is always full when i set my seater die . thanks all for the replies. as usual, BRIAN ENOS crowd responded with very helpfull insights and suggestions. i tested the '''ill''' rounds yesterday at the range and while the accuracy isn't that bad, sure enough i got some flyers that i wouldn't normally get with a much consistent COAL. i'm gonna flip the seater insert to see how it goes today and will get back with an update. if it work out good i ow you all a I didn't see any mention of measuring your projectiles, although I did read through the responses pretty fast so I may have missed it. Have you measured the projectiles by themselves to see what sort of variance in length they have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigsauerfan Posted September 11, 2017 Author Share Posted September 11, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, jhgtyre said: I didn't see any mention of measuring your projectiles, although I did read through the responses pretty fast so I may have missed it. Have you measured the projectiles by themselves to see what sort of variance in length they have? projectile lenght doesn't matter . the die push it down the case at the same deepness whatever the pea's lenght.if the projectile has lets say 3thous more than its bro,the die will push it further down the case and the coal should be the same. ok. a little update here. i turned the dillon seating die INSERT upside down, but it did nothing to fix my random coal issue. i checked each round after seating,and it dance all the f****** time round after round.....honestly, i'm puzzled.i never ever experienced more than 0.003 difference in coal,and now i get 0.010 spread ; one can be 1.132 and the next can jump to 1.141 OR worst 1.123 ;that is too much i'm shooting matches and the deviation happening with such spread in COAL at 20 yards means a missed plate .on top of that fact, i'm loading close to max load with VV340 and such a difference in coal means more internal pressure in the case . the bad part for me is i know that i have a bit of a temper when things don't roll my way, and i'm now looking at my sog axe and i'm picturing me hammering the bustin press with it LOL i'm now wondering if the nose of the JHP is hooking somewhere on its way in the die. Edited September 12, 2017 by sigsauerfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigsauerfan Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 ok. i found the gremlin. i loaded some zero 147 FMJ-RN tonight and my coal is back within 0.003 spread i'm setting my seater at 1.130 and i may get a 1.133 here and there, 90 % of the loaded rounds at exactly 1.130 after crimping !! my theory is now that for some reason the zero's 147 JHP nose and profile doesn't goes well with the dillon seater . the petals which open on impact probably hooks on the seater insert's edge on its way in . the 40 S&W 180 doesn't do that because the profile and noze of the bullet is larger and the petals of the hollow point aren't as sharp as its 9mm 147 sister .on top of that the 147's base has a '''lip''' that the 40's 180 don't have. i'm now staying away of the zeros JHP for my nines. thanks to all my brian enos bros,your insights and suggestions kept me alert and motivated at finding the gremlin i was afflicted by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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