Allowing Multiple Division Shooters at Matches

[nuidad]

Since the inclusion of the PCC Division, we are seeing a lot more competitors shooting two Divisions (pistol and PCC usually).   I'm hearing a lot of negative comments from shooters in another thread regarding this but someone has to be doing it successfully.   I'd like to hear from you if you are doing it successfully.  What are you doing to make it work?  Is it being accepted by the single Division shooters?

Edited August 24, 2017 by nuidad
clarification

[RJH]

If by successful you mean a few shooters shoot twice as much while the rest of the squad tapes and sets twice as much, it is successful here.

[StuckinMS]

It works fine at CRSSA!  We have shooters that shoot multiple pistol divisions as well.  As long as they help reset,tape, or pick up brass in between it is all good!  Some of the finest people on the planet! 

[bret]

slows things down, that takes out a guy from helping reset on the squad, and I don't see them bagging their handgun when they shoot PCC, you can speed things up by DQing the guy.

[nuidad]

2 hours ago, StuckinMS said:

It works fine at CRSSA!  We have shooters that shoot multiple pistol divisions as well.  As long as they help reset,tape, or pick up brass in between it is all good!  Some of the finest people on the planet! 

 

Same here, Eddie.  We do, however, start running out of enthusiastic re-setters as the day goes on...no matter their good character.  Our matches do run a bit long and folks get tired.  I think the match length is probably extended by around 25 - 35%... that's an additional hour or hour so per match (we had 5 mult. Div. shooters out of a total of 11 shooters last week). 

 

Some of the issues can probably be addressed through better, more efficient stage design and match planning and we're working on that.  Many have suggested running a separate "second gun" squad?  I'm not sure how that would help in the long run but I'm open to all suggestions.  Do you folks do that? 

Edited August 24, 2017 by nuidad
Did some math and corrected my time estimates

[aandabooks]

The couple matches I mainly shoot stopped allowing it because of most of the reasons already mentioned.  We are right around 80 shooters per weekend and were getting a few who were wanting to do it.  

[Hawk21]

Putting all the 2 division shooters in one squad is the worst possible option.   Then you have folks trying to RO, input results, and organize an order of shooters that allows time for magazine loading.  

 

Out match director states you can sign up for 2 but if spots fill up you will be dropped to allow additional shooters.

 

We have never had a problem with anyone lacking in assistance of pasting/painting.  But our club doesn't seem to have the hatred for PCC it looks like the majority of seasoned shooters do judging by various other threads.

[motosapiens]

34 minutes ago, Hawk21 said:

 But our club doesn't seem to have the hatred for PCC it looks like the majority of seasoned shooters do judging by various other threads.

 

we don't hate pcc, we just hate pcc shooters that are lazy and want to shoot 2 guns and want everyone else to the work for them. I am very happy with pcc shooters that work.

But shooting 2 guns is dumb, and unfair to everyone else.

 

run a separate pcc match afterwards and I will buy a pcc and help teardown the stages that the pistol shooters set up for us.

[nuidad]

 

 

1 hour ago, Hawk21 said:

But our club doesn't seem to have the hatred for PCC

 

On Big Island, happy hour is 23 hours and 1 hour sad hour.  We don't do our sad hour at the range...no hatred.

Edited August 24, 2017 by nuidad

[Hammer002]

Haven't seen this take shape here in USPSA matches.  Only a couple times at our small weekly club have I seen it during classifiers and even then its just the classifier shot twice.  Since I started shooting PCC I would like to shoot both and keep up the pistol skills as well, but I'm not gonna be "that guy." I just alternate a bit.  In Steel Challenge it is very common.  I used to like putting someone in between my two guns, but I noticed what many are saying here, so I started shooting them back to back and even telling the RO we don't need to paint in between my guns - I will go with whatever he calls so as not to have everyone painting for me twice.  USPSA would be quite different, especially for the larger, more complicated, or taxing reset stages with movers and such.  As much as I would like to do it, I would feel like a douche.  Shooting the rifle in a pistol match is still frowned upon by many of that opinion, I couldn't imagine pushing it further! 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Hammer002

[StuckinMS]

8 hours ago, nuidad said:

 

Same here, Eddie.  We do, however, start running out of enthusiastic re-setters as the day goes on...no matter their good character.  Our matches do run a bit long and folks get tired.  I think the match length is probably extended by around 25 - 35%... that's an additional hour or hour so per match (we had 5 mult. Div. shooters out of a total of 11 shooters last week). 

 

Some of the issues can probably be addressed through better, more efficient stage design and match planning and we're working on that.  Many have suggested running a separate "second gun" squad?  I'm not sure how that would help in the long run but I'm open to all suggestions.  Do you folks do that? 

We had 24 total guns and only 17 different shooters last week.  We broke down into 3 squads and divided the multigun shooters evenly.  I was one who shot open and limited.  Having the bigger mag capacity, I just reloaded mags between  stages.   I RO'd every shooter other than me in my squad and recorded the scores.  Yes I did get tired (heat index was 109 with 91% humidity) but I consider that conditioning for the bigger matches as I won't be doing anything other than taping or resetting targets .  Occasionally we get a lazy shooter whether they shoot one gun or two.  It is the entire squads responsibility to divi up the chores and see that everyone participates.  That way multiple people drive the lazy into participation.  Occasionally we discuss participation responsibility at the pre match meeting if needed.  I believe MSSA makes anyone shooting multiple guns shoot one gun through the entire match and then shoot the match again separately.  But that makes for a very long day.  

 

[RJH]

For the record I have a PCC and PCC shooters don't bother me, however, anyone shooting two guns will slow the squad down and will not be doing as much setting taping as everyone else. 

[3gunDQ]

It's only successful for the guy shooting two guns... you are down a man for reset/RO/score keeper.

 

The only way it doesn't slow your match down is your squads are already too big and your match already doesn't flow, so people shooting multiple guns doesn't matter... moving at a snail pace already. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by 3gunDQ

[Part_time_redneck]

I routinely shoot multiple entries in SC but wouldn't want to in USPSA. Seems like it could get to be a bit of a headache. All my local matches allow one only except for small classifier only matches. Wouldn't bother me if a few did but I wouldn't myself. I have enough trouble with one   

 

Like when flying. If you lose cabin pressure and are traveling with a small child you secure their mask after securing yours. If you have two small children, pick your favorite! 

 

Whatever said match allows I'm good with though. But just 1 for me. 

[Darqusoull13]

We encourage folks to shoot Pistol and PCC at our matches.  The extra entries help the club and we pull from the 3 gun crowd. Actually, we have a pretty good cross pollination effort at our range for folks to attend the various USPSA, Falling Steel and 3 Gun on the weekends. Then there's the fact that PCC is 10 times easier than a pistol to get a new shooter through a match safely and having a great time. We don't see much of a slowdown if any from multiple entries. A paster gun or two on every squad can go a long way keeping reset minimal and cycle times down. 

 

Our USPSA pistol and PCC shooters are well aware that they need to carry their weight in reset. Our matches have a relatively high percentage of 3 gunnners present though and those folks are a bit more used to being efficient at keeping their guns running keeping up with reset. In reality like all issues that affect cycle time on a stage it comes down to having good RO's that keep the match flowing and the shooters motivated. We are fortunate to have some excellent experienced RO's that not only keep our matches running smoothly, but also help new shooters take on small admin roles so we never have a shortage of folks ready to work. 

[gerritm]

4 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

We encourage folks to shoot Pistol and PCC at our matches.  The extra entries help the club and we pull from the 3 gun crowd. Actually, we have a pretty good cross pollination effort at our range for folks to attend the various USPSA, Falling Steel and 3 Gun on the weekends. Then there's the fact that PCC is 10 times easier than a pistol to get a new shooter through a match safely and having a great time. We don't see much of a slowdown if any from multiple entries. A paster gun or two on every squad can go a long way keeping reset minimal and cycle times down. 

 

Our USPSA pistol and PCC shooters are well aware that they need to carry their weight in reset. Our matches have a relatively high percentage of 3 gunnners present though and those folks are a bit more used to being efficient at keeping their guns running keeping up with reset. In reality like all issues that affect cycle time on a stage it comes down to having good RO's that keep the match flowing and the shooters motivated. We are fortunate to have some excellent experienced RO's that not only keep our matches running smoothly, but also help new shooters take on small admin roles so we never have a shortage of folks ready to work. 

Cory's USPSA & Falling Steel matches are well run with great RO's. Many of us shoot 2-guns just to compare times between them. Nothing to run 5-6 stages with 30-50 shooters in 3-4 hours. We all understand the need to reset, score, and help RO.

 

Old saying in 3-gun, "Shooting is optional--Resetting is mandatory."

 

gerritm

Edited August 24, 2017 by gerritm

[StuckinMS]

8 hours ago, gerritm said:

Cory's USPSA & Falling Steel matches are well run with great RO's. Many of us shoot 2-guns just to compare times between them. Nothing to run 5-6 stages with 30-50 shooters in 3-4 hours. We all understand the need to reset, score, and help RO.

 

Old saying in 3-gun, "Shooting is optional--Resetting is mandatory."

 

gerritm

We also run around 30 guns in that time frame.  We also have figured out how to even out the amount of long stages and short stages, along with stages that have movers in them. This aids in making sure there is no bottlenecking between squads, and gives a constant flow throughout the match.  Simply said that if everyone works, then there are no problems.   

[9x45]

No different than having 12 shooters on a squad shooting single division than having 9 and 3 of them shooting 2 divisions. You just separate them by a couple of shooters. It's still just the total number of shooters. It takes the same amount of time, IF, everyone helps..... We typically get between 90-140 shooters.

[Hammer002]

4 hours ago, 9x45 said:

No different than having 12 shooters on a squad shooting single division than having 9 and 3 of them shooting 2 divisions. You just separate them by a couple of shooters. It's still just the total number of shooters. It takes the same amount of time, IF, everyone helps..... We typically get between 90-140 shooters.

 

I think the issue seen here is separated by two shooters means - On deck = no reset; Shoot = no reset; In hole = reloading, no reset; On deck again = no reset; Shoot = no reset; after shoot = reload so ready for next stage, no reset. (last one can be dependent on where in shooting order).  From my experience, its way different.  That's why I went to shooting back to back in steel challenge and, locally, usually ask them not to paint in between and I will honor whatever the RO calls.  I was finding myself completely useless to the squad for resetting for half the time and felt selfish when we were putting one or two in between. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by Hammer002

[motosapiens]

17 hours ago, 9x45 said:

No different than having 12 shooters on a squad shooting single division than having 9 and 3 of them shooting 2 divisions. You just separate them by a couple of shooters. It's still just the total number of shooters. It takes the same amount of time, IF, everyone helps..... We typically get between 90-140 shooters.

incorrect. it's a LOT different, because the ones shooting 2 divisions are out of the reset rotation for twice as long as everyone else.

[JAFO]

14 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

That's why I went to shooting back to back in steel challenge and, locally, usually ask them not to paint in between and I will honor whatever the RO calls.  I was finding myself completely useless to the squad for resetting for half the time and felt selfish when we were putting one or two in between. 

 

We get a lot of 2-Division entries in SC.  If a shooter is signed up for one rimfire and one centerfire Division, I will usually ask them if they can shoot back to back with the rimfire first and we'll skip painting in between.

[9x45]

5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

incorrect. it's a LOT different, because the ones shooting 2 divisions are out of the reset rotation for twice as long as everyone else.

 

True, but I don't see a difference with my crew, but then we have been shooting together for 5 years to over 20 years.  No one minds helping out the 2 Division guys.

[Hammer002]

10 hours ago, JAFO said:

 

We get a lot of 2-Division entries in SC.  If a shooter is signed up for one rimfire and one centerfire Division, I will usually ask them if they can shoot back to back with the rimfire first and we'll skip painting in between.

 

Curious, how come rimfire first?  Cause makes the smaller splats first?  Just wondering. 

 

I have noticed near half the entries here locally are becoming double entries.  In both places I shoot, it still runs well.  I could absolutely see where trying it in USPSA matches would be a pain though.

[perttime]

Do USPSA rules allow shooting for score in more than on division in the same Match?

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, perttime said:

Do USPSA rules allow shooting for score in more than on division in the same Match?

 

This was recently discussed in another thread, but for me, I was left still confused.  The rules use the words match score and match recognition.  It seemed a shooter could shoot twice, but only the first run counted for score.  If so, I still wonder what match recognition is.  I see this during classifiers, where people will shoot a second gun for classification.  But there are also situations supported by the rules to shoot the classifiers again.  Not sure either...