Safety check at A3

[ChuckS]

7 minutes ago, cheby said:

The following is  from the Shadow 2 manual:

 

"Since the trigger mechanism has been specifically adjusted, it is possible to move the safety onto the "SAFE" position even if the hammer is placed on the safety notch. In this case, however, it is strongly not recommended to engage the safety because the trigger mechanism might be damaged when cocking the hammer by force or pulling the trigger. If damage to the trigger mechanism occurs, let it be repaired by a certified gunsmith"

 

 

This is from the Shadow manual:

 

"Since the trigger mechanism has been specifically adjusted, it is possible to move the safety onto the "SAFE" position even if the hammer is placed on the safety notch or leaned against the slide. In this case, however, it is not recommended to engage the safety because the trigger mechanism might be damaged when cocking the hammer by force"

 

It looks like the above should enough to demonstrate that Shadow and Shadow 2 are different from SP-01 and should be okay for that A3 chrono check..... Right?? 

 

 

Do either of these paragraphs address the root problem?

 

" At Area 3 at the Chrono station he said that since he could put it on safe while on DA and pull the trigger through that it was an unsafe gun. "

 

The issue wasn't when the safety can be applied, it was pulling the trigger with the safety "on".

[cheby]

good question... 

[cheby]

Okay how do we fix this?

I have 2 shadows and 2 shadows 2s. All have identical parts in them: CZC hammers and discos. I can put the safety on on three of them while the hammer is down and move the trigger. One gun is different for some reason. Luckily, it is my main match gun.  Any idea what needs to be replaced on those three guns? Hammers? Discos? 

[cheby]

3 hours ago, GregJ said:

  I have emailed CZC for clarification/suggestions. 

Please let us know if you get a response.

 

[tjbgec]

I would think so. I plan to bring my manual to my Section match just in case. They haven't cared about it before. My manual safety Rami doesn't mention being able to be put on safe in DA, just that it is not necessary. It's clear that there are differences between all these guns.

What is frustrating is what is considered ok and what isn't. I would assume that what they figure is right is the safety not even being able to be engaged in DA. The consistent call would have been to say that my backup gun wasn't even good to go since the safety was able to be in engaged. Instead they said that it was ok since it did stop the trigger pull. I'm grateful that I was ok'd with my other gun but it sets up a weird situation that doesn't feel like it's based on safety or competitive equity. It doesn't help that the Shadow doesn't have a consistent function that RO's can go by either. 

If I send in my other gun to get worked on what would be the best way to have it adjusted? Should I ask to have it so that the safety works in DA and stops the trigger pull? Probably not, but since RO's don't know how it's supposed to be setup that could be the problem we run into. I could have it adjusted so that you can't even engage the safety in DA and then get told that I have an unsafe gun. I know that is unlikely, but it's possible. 

*edit* This was supposed to be a reply to cheby's post about what it says in his Shadow and Shadow 2 manual's.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by tjbgec
Forgot to quote a post

[ChuckS]

My opinion:

 

A ) If Shadow/Shadow 2 comes from the OFM with the ability to put on the safety and pull the trigger with the gun fully decocked, the OFM needs to supply a statement that this is not a abnormal condition.

 

B ) If the ability is due to adding aftermarket parts from CZC (or any other non-OFM supplier) , you run into D4-22.1

 

"• For purposes of this clause, the prohibition on “disabling” means that you may NOT modify an external safety mechanism in any way that affects its function as a safety per the OFM design.

"

"function as a safety" needs to be addressed/

 

If CZC is considered the OFM, then they could supply the statement in A

Edited August 17, 2017 by ChuckS

[cheby]

I just reread the manual again and I think the RO should not have even tried to put the safety on because " the trigger mechanism has been specifically adjusted, it is possible to move the safety onto the "SAFE" position even if the hammer is placed on the safety notch. In this case, however, it is strongly not recommended to engage the safety because the trigger mechanism might be damaged when cocking the hammer" Basically by trying to do that, the RO could damage the trigger mechanism. (BTW, what exactly could be damaged?) 

 

I think the wording in the manual could be presented as the statement from the OFM. I also think those two CZ's that did not pass the chrono stage at A3 were just fine.

 

The problem, however, the A3 incident created the precedent that needs to be addressed ASAP because we are in the middle of the season and  have the Nationals in 7 weeks (And CZ-USA being the main sponsor!!)   

[rowdyb]

step one. pull hammer back.

step two. engage safety.

step three. pull trigger.

step four. observe if hammer strikes firing pin.

step 5 a. if hammer falls to firing pin gun is declared unsafe.

step 5 b. if hammer does not fall to strike firing pin gun's safety is functioning.

 

to me, that is absolutely all it should be and anything else is the inspector monkeying around.

Edited August 17, 2017 by rowdyb

[cheby]

11 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

step one. pull hammer back.

step two. engage safety.

step three. pull trigger.

step four. observe if hammer strikes firing pin.

step 5 a. if hammer falls to firing pin gun is declared unsafe.

step 5 b. if hammer does not fall to strike firing pin gun's safety is functioning.

 

to me, that is absolutely all it should be and anything else is the inspector monkeying around.

Exactly!

[adamge]

Do they make a habit of trying to engage the safety on every 1911/2011 they run through chrono?

[Ludde]

From my personal experience on all the untouched CZ 75 SP-01 Shadows I've fiddled around with you CANNOT engage the safety while the hammer is fully decocked. They are designed that way from the factory. IF you change the hammer, sear or the safety (OEM parts) you will have small tolerances and/or if you have to fit the sear/safety engagement points you can easily have a gun that can engage the safety while the hammer is fully decocked. It is a matter of tolerances between parts and/or if someone fit them in that way. Nothing wrong with it but I always fit or change out parts so that it remains as from factory meaning you cannot engage the safety while fully decocked.

Tanfos on other hand come from the factory with the possibility to engage the safety while fully decocked.

[Hammer002]

delete.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Hammer002

[GregJ]

14 hours ago, cheby said:

Please let us know if you get a response.

 

 

Below is response from CGW.  Waiting on response from CZC.

 

Quote

Yes, the ASB will fix the safety not stopping the hammer form dropping. You will also need a S-Spacer as your gun does not have a firing pin block. 

But, the safety is not meant to be operated with the hammer down (in DA). I'm not sure the tech inspection will try to operate a safety improperly. Even with the ASB, the safety can still be engaged with the hammer down, but it is not advised to do this. The safety is only meant to be engaged with the hammer in full cock.

 

Looked closer at my manual, which is pretty clear the safety is not designed to work in DA.  I will be keeping my manual in my bag for future reference if needed.

 

[mikeinctown]

16 hours ago, ChuckS said:

My opinion:

 

A ) If Shadow/Shadow 2 comes from the OFM with the ability to put on the safety and pull the trigger with the gun fully decocked, the OFM needs to supply a statement that this is not a abnormal condition.

 

B ) If the ability is due to adding aftermarket parts from CZC (or any other non-OFM supplier) , you run into D4-22.1

 

"• For purposes of this clause, the prohibition on “disabling” means that you may NOT modify an external safety mechanism in any way that affects its function as a safety per the OFM design.

"

"function as a safety" needs to be addressed/

 

If CZC is considered the OFM, then they could supply the statement in A

Not sure if you read the entire thread or not, but the manual clearly states that one should not engage the safety in DA and that doing so could cause damage. In fact if I had the manual showing this with me and the guy tried doing it I would point this out and ask if the RM is willing to cut me a check for smith fees.

 

Also, it was mentioned by someone that they asked Hopkins. The guy doesn't know every word of every manual nor could he and he shouldn't have been expected to provide a concrete answer.

[ChuckS]

2 hours ago, mikeinctown said:

Not sure if you read the entire thread or not, but the manual clearly states that one should not engage the safety in DA and that doing so could cause damage. In fact if I had the manual showing this with me and the guy tried doing it I would point this out and ask if the RM is willing to cut me a check for smith fees.

 

Also, it was mentioned by someone that they asked Hopkins. The guy doesn't know every word of every manual nor could he and he shouldn't have been expected to provide a concrete answer.

I did read the whole thread. As a former SP-01 shooter, I know that I would not of ever tried to set the safety with the hammer down. But consider the RO, who like Hopkins, does not know every word of the CZ manual and also shoots a decocker Beretta in production. He knows that on his gun,. at least, he can set the safety and will not be able to pull the trigger. He may not know that you are able to set the CZ safety but shouldn't because the factory says not to. He would logically think that if the design allowed the safety to be set, it should work like a safety. At that point you need to provide information that being able to pull the trigger when the safety is on with the hammer decocked is a normal , but not recommended state, from the OFM, not an aftermarket supplier to prove compliance with D4-22.1. The notation from the CZ manual should provide sufficient to reach the desired conclusion even if it is not explicitly stated.

 

I looked up the Shadow 2 manual on line (Page 8 https://www.czub.cz/media/attachment/file/c/z/cz_shadow_2_en.pdf)  and found the information that you need. It follows the paragraph that you quoted:

"

Since the trigger mechanism has been specifically adjusted, it is possible to move the safety onto the "SAFE" position even

if the hammer is placed on the safety notch. In this case, however, it is strongly not recommended to engage the safety because the trigger mechanism

might be damaged when cocking the hammer by force or pulling the trigger. If damage to the trigger mechanism occurs, let it be repaired by a certified gunsmith.

 

Besides the method previously described it is possible to put the pistol into a safety mode and still be ready to fire immediately

 

That sentence will get you past D4-22.1. The same notation is in the Shadow manual (http://cz-usa.com/hammer/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Instruction-Manual-cz-75-SP-01-Shadow_en.pdf ) on page 9.

 

Bring the book and have a good nationals!

 

[858]

I have a CJW adjustable sear and while you can engage the safety in DA you can not pull the trigger. Have any of you guys fit CZC safeties?

[mikeinctown]

11 minutes ago, 858 said:

I have a CJW adjustable sear and while you can engage the safety in DA you can not pull the trigger. Have any of you guys fit CZC safeties?

 

I will have to pull out the instruction sheet from CGW but given that it is just a set screw, don't they even tell you not to engage the safety in DA?

[858]

19 minutes ago, mikeinctown said:

 

I will have to pull out the instruction sheet from CGW but given that it is just a set screw, don't they even tell you not to engage the safety in DA?

 

Absolutely. Applying the safety in DA and then pulling the trigger will damage the sear. It's enough to make a RO happy though, just sayin'.

[MKarino]

I have 2 Shadows and a Shadow 2.  Both of my Shadows allow the safety to be placed into safe and the  hammer will move to half cock when the DA trigger is pulled. It will not release the hammer. I even had an issue with the safety not working properly, the hammer would fall even with the safety on and so I installed a new safety and a new sear. The safety can still be pushed onto safe when the hammer is down. Always has and still does. I have to note that both of my Shadows have the short reset on them. One has the adjustable sear with the set screw in it too.

I agree with cheby, the Shadow and Shadow 2 are different.

Edited August 18, 2017 by MKarino
Addition

[Ludde]

16 hours ago, ChuckS said:

 

Since the trigger mechanism has been specifically adjusted, it is possible to move the safety onto the "SAFE" position even

if the hammer is placed on the safety notch.

 

I would like to point out that is clearly states if the hammer is placed on the SAFETY NOTCH - Meaning in half cock position.

You should not be able (at least they come from the factory this way) to put on the safety while completely de-cocked.

However tolerances play a factor even if using OEM parts and in some cases if not fitted as intended from factory you can engage the safety even in fully de-cocked position..

 

However the CZ DA/SA guns are considered "safe" if fully decocked. One should not use the safety in DA (fully decocked).

Edited August 19, 2017 by Ludde

[IHAVEGAS]

The guns work like a revolver on the first d.a. Shot , I doubt that Troy or anyone really would consider this a safety issue. I agree with those who feel it is a rules issue.

 

I think polite contact with Troy and a request for a formal written decision is the only answer. 

[jcc7x7]

On 8/17/2017 at 0:10 PM, sarnburg said:

There were probably 50 different CZ guns that came through chrono at A3, exactly two failed this check.

 

On 8/17/2017 at 1:23 PM, Fantom919 said:

 

So bascaly you're guilty of what ever the chrono officer decides unless you can prove yourself innocent?

 

Is anyone else concerned that they openly admit to not being experts at each gun (understandable) but then make unsubstantiated rulings of what is deemed acceptable or not? Even more concerning, they rely on a A CZ shooter/rep as their fall back to what's acceptable? 

 

I understand that a reasonable approach would be to ask Matt as the assumption would be he is most familiar with CZ's. However, if we're talking about reasonable, why would this topic even be in question? Safety works in SA and the gun is DA/SA. What's the issue?

 

Let's also not forget that there's a conflict of interest when a competing shooters opinion determines the outcome of another shooters match potentially. I don't doubt Matt's integrity and don't think he would purposely call the gun unsafe with any ill intentions. But from a situational standpoint, this seems quite undesirable for him to make a call.

Seems like the 25 to 1 ratio is a fair thought process of making a decision.

No dog in the fight I don't shoot production FWIW

[teros135]

44 minutes ago, jcc7x7 said:

 

Seems like the 25 to 1 ratio is a fair thought process of making a decision.

No dog in the fight I don't shoot production FWIW

 

Not fair if it violates how the gun is made and intended to be used.  Not fair also if the range staff don't understand how the gun is made and intended to be operated.

 

Agree that a clarification in writing is needed.

[rowdyb]

how about you don't try to put the safety on while the hammer is down? that'd fix all of this and be a lot simpler....

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, jcc7x7 said:

 

Seems like the 25 to 1 ratio is a fair thought process of making a decision.

 

 

If it was 10,000:1 I'd still think it is about whether or not that one person got the right call.

(In explanation, if a neighbors dog is shitting in your yard you probably are not impressed about all of the other millions of yards it is not shitting in.)