Safety check at A3

[tjbgec]

Hello all,

My original Shadow that I got from CZ Custom allows me to engage the safety while the hammer is down. You can even pull the trigger. The manual mentions this and it would seem that it's pretty common. You just aren't supposed to engage the safety while the hammer is down. It works fine in SA. Here are a few old threads on it I found.   

http://forums.brianenos.com/topic/186846-cz-sp-01-shadow-custom-safety/

http://forums.brianenos.com/topic/196869-cz-75spo1-safety/

 

At Area 3 at the Chrono station he said that since he could put it on safe while on DA and pull the trigger through that it was an unsafe gun. I argued that since you aren't even supposed to put it on safe while on DA and that the safety works as intended in SA that it was still a safe gun. You aren't even supposed to be able to put it on safe in DA anyway. How is this anymore unsafe then a gun that doesn't allow you to use the safety in DA at all? The gun would go off if you pulled the trigger on those ones too. I was overruled by the RM.

Lucky for me my backup gun worked to their satisfaction. It still allows you to put it on safe while in DA, but the hammer stops at half cock and you cannot pull through.

Has it been like this for awhile? This was my first Area match. Since the manual mentions the possibility of putting it on safe in DA I'm a surprised that this is considered unsafe. When you shop for parts at Cajun they even mention that putting in a different hammer could allow you to put it on safe in DA.

I tried the adjustable sear from Cajun but it does the same exact thing. If I screw it down too far I can't use the safety in either mode. I'll probably just switch my backup gun to my match gun from now on.
 

[mro111lland]

I have a bone stock cz75 b when hammer is down can not engage safety that is the way it was built

[858]

I would appeal the decision, there isn't a safety on DA from the factory so you are not deactivating any safeties..

[tjbgec]

Would that go to DNROI? Troy was the RM at this match so I would probably be out of luck.

Maybe I just got too wordy on my first post but I am curious if anyone else has had this same ruling at other Area matches. I totally agree with 858 that there isn't even a safety on DA from the factory so it's hard to say I defeated it according to the rules.

[eerw]

CZs have been shot this way for the last decade.

So RO is kind of making an interpretation that does not  follow precedence established by as many nationals, world shoots, etc.

[rowdyb]

you got screwed

[Davidoff]

Should have asked Troy for a rules clarification

[Fantom919]

I was worried about the same thing at A2 this year. My main accushadow would fire in DA with the safety up. In SA mode with the safety on it would not fire. I shot the first morning and then headed straight to CZ Custom and Stuart helped me fix it.

 

I think maybe a rules clarification would be needed. It's calling into question the design intent of having a safety on the gun and when it was intended to be used. 

 

RO's assumption is that it must be functional in all conditions which is understandable, but unclear. What if the safety was designed to not work in DA mode? 

 

 

[tjbgec]

Thanks eerw and Rowdy. I was hoping some CZ smiths would chime in.

I'll email Troy for a rules clarification. I don't know if the Shadow 2 is any different but they did mention it a few times even though I corrected them that I wasn't using a Shadow 2. Hopefully it's just a mix up and I don't need to spend time and money to fix something that doesn't really need to be fixed.

[GregJ]

Following. 

[ChuckS]

40 minutes ago, tjbgec said:

Thanks eerw and Rowdy. I was hoping some CZ smiths would chime in.

I'll email Troy for a rules clarification. I don't know if the Shadow 2 is any different but they did mention it a few times even though I corrected them that I wasn't using a Shadow 2. Hopefully it's just a mix up and I don't need to spend time and money to fix something that doesn't really need to be fixed.

The match book says that Troy was the RM! I think you can save your email...

[mikeinctown]

2 hours ago, ChuckS said:

The match book says that Troy was the RM! I think you can save your email...

 

Depends on what an owners manual or CZ actually says is how the gun is supposed to work. The RM can claim anything they wish, but if their opinions go against the original design then they would be wrong and showld be proven wrong. My CZ does the same thing. You can still pull the trigger with hammer down and hammer will move, but in SA and safety on the trigger won't budge.

[GregJ]

Manual is very cryptic.

From Stuart, 2nd link posted by OP.

 

Quote

the safety on the CZ is designed only the block the sear in single action when the hammer is back.

it is not designed to block or stop anything when the hammer is down.

if you do this in double action you can damage the sear.

This is from the Shadow manual

Engaging the Safety
Push the safety up to the Safety-On position (Fig.5) until the red warning dot is covered.
The safety in this position blocks the trigger mechanism and slide, thus preventing the pulling of the trigger and operating the slide.
Since the trigger mechanism has been specifically adjusted, it is possible to move the safety onto the "SAFE" position even if the hammer is placed on the safety notch or leaned against the slide.
In this case, however, it is not recommended to engage the safety because the trigger mechanism might be damaged when cocking the hammer by force.
Besides the method previously described it is possible to put the pistol into a safety mode and still be ready to fire immediately:
Load the pistol.
Grasp the grip, POINT IN A SAFE DIRECTION. With a thumb press on the grooved area (thumb piece) of the hammer, pull the trigger and release the hammer slowly forward (Fig. 6) until it rests on the action or safety notch of the hammer.
Release the trigger.
Practice this operation very carefully to avoid an accidental discharge! We strongly recommend to practice this operation beforehand wit h the pistol unloaded!
In this state the pistol is safe for all normal handling and at the same time ready for immediate use.
Please remember that the safest way to secure a pistol is to unload it and store it in a safe place!

Edited June 10, 2014 by Vanniek71

 

[cheby]

On 8/15/2017 at 5:09 AM, tjbgec said:

Thanks eerw and Rowdy. I was hoping some CZ smiths would chime in.

I'll email Troy for a rules clarification. I don't know if the Shadow 2 is any different but they did mention it a few times even though I corrected them that I wasn't using a Shadow 2. Hopefully it's just a mix up and I don't need to spend time and money to fix something that doesn't really need to be fixed.

Please let us know if you receive any response from Troy.... really don't want to get into this shot at Nationals...

Edited August 16, 2017 by cheby

[tjbgec]

I sent the email this morning. I will post the response if I get one.

[tjbgec]

Here is his reply. Not really saying what the call is exactly but letting me know that I need to be prepared to defend it better in the future possibly. Logically it drives me a little batty as you may not even be able to put it on safe in DA but if for some reason it does it needs to work as a safety even though it was never intended to be used that way. It doesn't matter if the safety works perfectly in SA. What advantage do I get if the safety can go up in DA? If anything it's a disadvantage. 

 

Anyway, on to the email:

The question was not whether it could be put in safe in any variety of positions, it was whether the gun had been modified to allow that.  Having only Matt Hopkins from CZ as a reference, and his statement that this was not the way the gun was supposed to function, the gun was deemed unsafe.  We don't usually have the time to research this kind of thing at a match, nor are we all expected to be experts on every gun out there.  And, the onus for demonstrating that a gun is safe to operate is always on the competitor--the one with the gun in his hand.  I understand trigger work,etc., may lead to this kind of situation, but in many people's minds, this will be an altered, and therefore unsafe, gun.
 

I may look into this further, but if I were you, I'd be prepared to have that questioned at any match where the chronograph officer is checking, as he should be.
 

Regards,
 

Troy

[MHitchcock]

Sounds to me like you should be able to prove your point if it comes up again. Bring the manual saying that the safety is not supposed to function in DA and is not to be used in DA. Remind them you do not need a DA safety in production, and show them that the safety works in SA as designed. 

[sarnburg]

From the CZ manual: 

The design of this handgun incorporates the feature that the manual safety can not be applied when the hammer is not cocked to avoid reducing the readiness of the pistol for use by accidental engaging of the manual safety. (https://www.czub.cz/media/attachment/file/i/n/instruction-manual-cz-75-sp-01.pdf)

 

So if the safety on your firearm will engage while in DA mode then the internal parts have worn (or been modified) to the point that they do not function correctly. 

 

There were probably 50 different CZ guns that came through chrono at A3, exactly two failed this check.

 

Scott 

 

 

 

[MHitchcock]

18 minutes ago, sarnburg said:

From the CZ manual: 

The design of this handgun incorporates the feature that the manual safety can not be applied when the hammer is not cocked to avoid reducing the readiness of the pistol for use by accidental engaging of the manual safety. (https://www.czub.cz/media/attachment/file/i/n/instruction-manual-cz-75-sp-01.pdf)

 

So if the safety on your firearm will engage while in DA mode then the internal parts have worn (or been modified) to the point that they do not function correctly. 

 

There were probably 50 different CZ guns that came through chrono at A3, exactly two failed this check.

 

Scott 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the clarification Scott.

[GregJ]

19 minutes ago, sarnburg said:

From the CZ manual: 

The design of this handgun incorporates the feature that the manual safety can not be applied when the hammer is not cocked to avoid reducing the readiness of the pistol for use by accidental engaging of the manual safety. (https://www.czub.cz/media/attachment/file/i/n/instruction-manual-cz-75-sp-01.pdf)

 

So if the safety on your firearm will engage while in DA mode then the internal parts have worn (or been modified) to the point that they do not function correctly. 

 

There were probably 50 different CZ guns that came through chrono at A3, exactly two failed this check.

 

Scott 

 

 

 

 

Interesting, that verbiage is not in the manual I have, for an SP-01. I have a CZ 75 Shadow Custom Black, and can engage the safety with the hammer fully down.  I have emailed CZC for clarification/suggestions. 

[StevenR]

The function not working is "readiness" not the safety.  Is not the readiness a shooter issue?  Sounds like a non-problem being made into a problem.

Edited August 17, 2017 by StevenR
clarity

[Fantom919]

2 hours ago, tjbgec said:

Here is his reply. Not really saying what the call is exactly but letting me know that I need to be prepared to defend it better in the future possibly. Logically it drives me a little batty as you may not even be able to put it on safe in DA but if for some reason it does it needs to work as a safety even though it was never intended to be used that way. It doesn't matter if the safety works perfectly in SA. What advantage do I get if the safety can go up in DA? If anything it's a disadvantage. 

 

Anyway, on to the email:

The question was not whether it could be put in safe in any variety of positions, it was whether the gun had been modified to allow that.  Having only Matt Hopkins from CZ as a reference, and his statement that this was not the way the gun was supposed to function, the gun was deemed unsafe.  We don't usually have the time to research this kind of thing at a match, nor are we all expected to be experts on every gun out there.  And, the onus for demonstrating that a gun is safe to operate is always on the competitor--the one with the gun in his hand.  I understand trigger work,etc., may lead to this kind of situation, but in many people's minds, this will be an altered, and therefore unsafe, gun.
 

I may look into this further, but if I were you, I'd be prepared to have that questioned at any match where the chronograph officer is checking, as he should be.
 

Regards,
 

Troy

 

So bascaly you're guilty of what ever the chrono officer decides unless you can prove yourself innocent?

 

Is anyone else concerned that they openly admit to not being experts at each gun (understandable) but then make unsubstantiated rulings of what is deemed acceptable or not? Even more concerning, they rely on a A CZ shooter/rep as their fall back to what's acceptable? 

 

I understand that a reasonable approach would be to ask Matt as the assumption would be he is most familiar with CZ's. However, if we're talking about reasonable, why would this topic even be in question? Safety works in SA and the gun is DA/SA. What's the issue?

 

Let's also not forget that there's a conflict of interest when a competing shooters opinion determines the outcome of another shooters match potentially. I don't doubt Matt's integrity and don't think he would purposely call the gun unsafe with any ill intentions. But from a situational standpoint, this seems quite undesirable for him to make a call.

[tjbgec]

1 hour ago, sarnburg said:

From the CZ manual: 

The design of this handgun incorporates the feature that the manual safety can not be applied when the hammer is not cocked to avoid reducing the readiness of the pistol for use by accidental engaging of the manual safety. (https://www.czub.cz/media/attachment/file/i/n/instruction-manual-cz-75-sp-01.pdf)

 

So if the safety on your firearm will engage while in DA mode then the internal parts have worn (or been modified) to the point that they do not function correctly. 

 

There were probably 50 different CZ guns that came through chrono at A3, exactly two failed this check.

 

Scott 

 

 

 

That is from the SP-01 manual, not the SP-01 Shadow manual. The Shadow manual is different. http://cz-usa.com/hammer/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Instruction-Manual-cz-75-SP-01-Shadow_en.pdf  On page 9 it says what has already been quoted above and that is what is said in both of my manuals. My guns came this way from CZ custom brand new so it wasn't worn down. If it was fitted wrong then I guess that's on me for not contacting them and sending it back right away.

I thought I've seen instructions from Cajun for the adjustable sear that mention that you will be able to flip on the safety in DA but I can't find it online right now. Either way, I'm pretty sure this is common. If you look at my links there are plenty of people that got it that way. I'll probably get it worked on just to avoid the hassle if this is how it could be ruled in the future.

[ChuckS]

5 minutes ago, Fantom919 said:

 

So bascaly you're guilty of what ever the chrono officer decides unless you can prove yourself innocent?

Yup.  D4-21

Authorized modifications (Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines)

Please note that, during a match, a shooter may be required to demonstrate that their gun is in compli-ance with Division rules by identifying a specific rules clause or published interpretation which autho-rizes any disputed modification. If the shooter cannot identify an authorizing rules-clause or published interpretation, the RM shall rule that the modification is PROHIBITED for Production use and shall move the shooter to Open Division.

[cheby]

The following is  from the Shadow 2 manual:

 

"Since the trigger mechanism has been specifically adjusted, it is possible to move the safety onto the "SAFE" position even if the hammer is placed on the safety notch. In this case, however, it is strongly not recommended to engage the safety because the trigger mechanism might be damaged when cocking the hammer by force or pulling the trigger. If damage to the trigger mechanism occurs, let it be repaired by a certified gunsmith"

 

 

This is from the Shadow manual:

 

"Since the trigger mechanism has been specifically adjusted, it is possible to move the safety onto the "SAFE" position even if the hammer is placed on the safety notch or leaned against the slide. In this case, however, it is not recommended to engage the safety because the trigger mechanism might be damaged when cocking the hammer by force"

 

It looks like the above should be enough to demonstrate that Shadow and Shadow 2 are different from SP-01 and should be okay for that A3 chrono check..... Right?? 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by cheby