TaterHead Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 The course specifies an unloaded start and the shooter has 11 rounds in his mag. Many do to begin a loaded start, but it is easy to forget. So that calls for a bump to Open: 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or otherrequirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, thecompetitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. Appendix D4, 9: Yes, maximum 10 rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal So, my question is: Isn't that a bit harsh? To ruin an entire match because of 1 extra round? Perhaps just a procedural would be appropriate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraj Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 While it might sound harsh for not unloading your barney mag I think it's fair if you don't follow the rules for the division you get removed from the division. Same story if you don't make weight or the box for whatever reason. You have to draw the line somewhere. Everyone else followed the rules they need to aswell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 20 minutes ago, TaterHead said: So, my question is: Isn't that a bit harsh? To ruin an entire match because of 1 extra round? Perhaps just a procedural would be appropriate? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCTaylor Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 On some stages it would be a competitive advantage. If it were 1 procedural per stage, I'd probably take the hit and load my mags to capacity! Saving 1 or 2 reloads would negate the penalty. Now if it didn't bump you to open and it was not a 1 procedural per shot, lotsa gaming would happen. I agree it's harsh but as Kraj said, have to draw the line somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 I do not see it as harsh, it's just the rules. If you are a Production shooter, you have to remember those things. The first thing you should ask is about is the start position if you don't hear it while the WSB is being read. You could always start in Open and never have to worry about it Then again, you can always just start with 10 and again, never have to worry about it. A procedural is given when you don't follow a procedure, something told to do that you follow mostly while shooting the CoF. If you don't meet a division requirement, you are just not in that division anymore and it's not fair to all the others who follow the requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 Too harsh would be a DQ for an equipment issue. A bump to Open at least allows you to finish the match, and you can still compare your scores to the other Production shooters after the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 Because it could be a serious advantage it should be harsh to prevent cheating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 26 minutes ago, TaterHead said: So, my question is: Isn't that a bit harsh? To ruin an entire match because of 1 extra round? Perhaps just a procedural would be appropriate? Per round, per mag or per stage? I could think of stages where a -10 procedural might be worth it to start with a 33rd mag in Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 Did the OP get clipped for this recently? That's usually the reason for an "unfair rules" post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaterHead Posted December 13, 2016 Author Share Posted December 13, 2016 12 minutes ago, teros135 said: Did the OP get clipped for this recently? That's usually the reason for an "unfair rules" post... No, I did not. Saw it happen to someone I don't even know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 3 hours ago, mreed911 said: Per round, per mag or per stage? I could think of stages where a -10 procedural might be worth it to start with a 33rd mag in Production. A 33 round mag would never fit the box...however, a 19 round mag would Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraj Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 18 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said: A 33 round mag would never fit the box...however, a 19 round mag would 2 procedurals for not fitting the box and more than 10 round in a mag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 22 minutes ago, Kraj said: 2 procedurals for not fitting the box and more than 10 round in a mag If it doesn't fit in the box, you never start in Production. You would start in Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraj Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 13 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said: If it doesn't fit in the box, you never start in Production. You would start in Open. It was a joke, went with the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 17 minutes ago, Kraj said: It was a joke, went with the thread As was mine.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 Shoot Production or L-10 for any length of time, and you'll learn to remove that Barney mag from your pocket as soon as you read "unloaded start" on the WSB. Just part of shooting in those Divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 I never load any mag with more than 10. I make ready with 2 magazines just like other divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 8 hours ago, TaterHead said: The course specifies an unloaded start and the shooter has 11 rounds in his mag. Many do to begin a loaded start, but it is easy to forget. So that calls for a bump to Open: 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or otherrequirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, thecompetitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. Appendix D4, 9: Yes, maximum 10 rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal So, my question is: Isn't that a bit harsh? To ruin an entire match because of 1 extra round? Perhaps just a procedural would be appropriate? Would you feel differently if a production shooter loaded 12 rounds in his barney mag, or loaded the remaining mags on his belt to 11? I can think of stages where I would have loved to have had an extra round.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 Is it a bit harsh to shoot for no score if you chrono 124.9? Or to get bumped to Open if your 140mm Limited mag just barely doesn't fit the gauge, but still doesn't hold any more rounds than one that does? Or get bumped to Open if your Production gun is .1oz over weight? I could go on. I think the rules makes sense as written for all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 no it isn't harsh, it's the rules, if you don't follow them, you get bumped to open. how hard is it to make sure you only have 10 rounds in a magazine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody6477 Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 On 12/13/2016 at 8:39 PM, PatJones said: I never load any mag with more than 10. I make ready with 2 magazines just like other divisions. I do the same. Put a round in the chamber with 4th mag in production, then replace that with 5th mag. Never have a mag with more than 10 so bad thing can't happen. As for "harsh," maybe. That translates into serious incentive to comply with the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 I think the rule is very harsh and a procedural makes a whole lot more sense. Good r.o.'s are counting shots and a deliberate cheater is going to be sharp enough to know that he is a lot more likely to get busted than to gain an advantage on the table start. Even if a cheater somewhere did sneak by, this sport is supposed to be about having fun so it is worth weighing the priorities between some person somewhere gaining an advantage that probably will not make any difference at the end of the day, and peeing all over some new guys post toasties. There is a rational that after the new guy gets bitch slapped he/she will remember it, but I can see no benefit to the sport from bitch slapping new shooters with 'gotcha' technicalities. When I see gotcha baloney I try to make sure that any newer shooters on my squad are warned about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 I'm constantly reading people's opinions that the rulebook is already too thick and full of minutiae. The "bump to Open" is one rule that covers anyone in any Division for not complying with the rules. What some are suggesting would be to make a different rule for over capacity on an unloaded start in a capacity-restricted Division. Where does that road end? What about over capacity on additional mags? On normal starts? And is the rule for 1 over the same as 7 over? You'd also have people calling for alternative penalties for other things like slightly over-length mags, slightly under-powered ammo, slightly over-sized guns, etc. The way it is works with one simple, all-encompassing rule. Is it a technicality? Yes. But it's also part of learning the sport. The shooter who violates it isn't being DQ'd. They can still finish the match. And if you are new enough to not know this rule, how much is it really going to crush you that you got bumped to Open? There's no new car on the prize table. When I'm on a squad with people I know are new or new-ish, and we approach an unloaded start stage, I remind those shooting 10-round Divisions to beware of that 11th round before we get started. It's a simple, friendly thing to help new shooters learn the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 20 minutes ago, JAFO said: I'm constantly reading people's opinions that the rulebook is already too thick and full of minutiae. The "bump to Open" is one rule that covers anyone in any All but one Division for not complying with the rules. What some are suggesting would be to make a different rule for over capacity on an unloaded start in a capacity-restricted Division. Where does that road end? What about over capacity on additional mags? On normal starts? And is the rule for 1 over the same as 7 over? You'd also have people calling for alternative penalties for other things like slightly over-length mags, slightly under-powered ammo, slightly over-sized guns, etc. The way it is works with one simple, all-encompassing rule. Is it a technicality? Yes. But it's also part of learning the sport. The shooter who violates it isn't being DQ'd. They can still finish the match. And if you are new enough to not know this rule, how much is it really going to crush you that you got bumped to Open? There's no new car on the prize table. When I'm on a squad with people I know are new or new-ish, and we approach an unloaded start stage, I remind those shooting 10-round Divisions to beware of that 11th round before we get started. It's a simple, friendly thing to help new shooters learn the rules. Being an open shooter who faces "no score" for equipment violations, I always thought that all division should have the same "opportunity". So, I guess it puts me in the not harsh enough category. Then there's this: Don't do the crime if you can't do the time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 if you don't make power factor in Minor, you shoot for no score. if your magazines or even 1 of them is too long on open, you shoot for no score. if your holster is out of compliance,,either too low or too far, you Zero the stage. There are a lot of ways to screw up a match, following the rules is not hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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