Production Unloaded Start

[IHAVEGAS]

 

17 minutes ago, bret said:

if you don't make power factor in Minor, you shoot for no score.

if your magazines or even 1 of them is too long on open, you shoot for no score.

if your holster is out of compliance,,either too low or too far, you Zero the stage.

There are a lot of ways to screw up a match, following the rules is not hard.

Really might just as well do dq's for everything. 

[bret]

15 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Really might just as well do dq's for everything. 

DQ'S are for safety violations.

Why DQ someone for not following equipment rules?

All the matches I work, the RM tells us to do an equipment check, before they shoot so we can help get them in compliance.

most of the time people will argue about it it, but sometimes they think us for helping them out.

How hard is it to read the rule book and look at the appropriate Apendix's?

I think the Rule Book is only 76 pages.

[IHAVEGAS]

10 minutes ago, bret said:

DQ'S are for safety violations.

And two or three other things. 

My point being, the op wanted opinions on whether a particular penalty was harsh. All I'm saying is that I think it is, we have a handful of penalties to choose from and in this case I think we were very heavy handed. 

[Edge40]

Not harsh at all.  Theres an incredibly simple solution to this problem.  Load your mags to 10, and keep one with just one round in it.  If you need 10+1, use the barney mag.  Done.  I shot production for a few years and not once was that an issue for me.

[Nik Habicht]

13 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

I think the rule is very harsh and a procedural makes a whole lot more sense. Good r.o.'s are counting shots and a deliberate cheater is going to be sharp enough to know that he is a lot more likely to get busted than to gain an advantage on the table start. Even if a cheater somewhere did sneak by, this sport is supposed to be about having fun so it is worth weighing the priorities between some person somewhere gaining an advantage that probably will not make any difference at the end of the day, and peeing all over some new guys post toasties. 

There is a rational that after the new guy gets bitch slapped he/she will remember it, but I can see no benefit to the sport from bitch slapping new shooters with 'gotcha' technicalities. 

When I see gotcha baloney I try to make sure that any newer shooters on my squad are warned about it. 

Oddly enough, I've never seen a new competitor moved to Open because of this -- possibly because we're usually pretty good about covering when helping them with their walkthrough.....

I've seen a Master Class shooter go to open at an Area 8 match, as well as a B class production shooter at a large club match.  Both shooters had more than a decade in the sport at the time, and simply had brainfade.....

I spent a long few seconds wondering if I'd be next, when my slide didn't lock open after I fired ten rounds on an unloaded start stage at a Nationals at PASA park.  Fortunately no round came out of the chamber when I racked the slide....

[IHAVEGAS]

9 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

I spent a long few seconds wondering if I'd be next, when my slide didn't lock open after I fired ten rounds on an unloaded start stage at a Nationals at PASA park.  

The nationals is sort of what had me sensitive to the issue, ss I believe, could have been production. 

My favorite local cro told me about a table start stage where they had one of the r.o.'s grabbing everybody's first dropped mag and counting rounds to see if they could be given a bump to open. To me stuff like that is just wrong, paying a big entry fee + hotel + travel + vacation time + put in gobs of practice & then having your opportunity squashed over trivia is not the fun and fellowship that most people participate in the sport for. 

"Oddly enough, I've never seen a new competitor moved to Open because of this -- possibly because we're usually pretty good about covering when helping them with their walkthrough....."

That is the kind of stuff that makes the sport a worthwhile pastime . 

10 hours ago, Edge40 said:

 I shot production for a few years and not once was that an issue for me.

Not picking on you in particular, but on the internet there sure seems to be a whole lot of people who never make mistakes. In real life I do not know anybody like that. 

Edited December 16, 2016 by IHAVEGAS

[Gary Stevens]

You just haven't picked the correct mistake. My mistakes could fill a book.

[ChuckS]

Just now, Gary Stevens said:

You just haven't picked the correct mistake. My mistakes could fill a book.

Only one book? You are way ahead of me!

[Gary Stevens]

BIG book:)

[Edge40]

5 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Not picking on you in particular, but on the internet there sure seems to be a whole lot of people who never make mistakes. In real life I do not know anybody like that. 

I never said I don't make mistakes.  I make mistakes all the time.  Thats just a really easy one to prevent.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Edge40

[mreed911]

5 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

The nationals is sort of what had me sensitive to the issue, ss I believe, could have been production. 

My favorite local cro told me about a table start stage where they had one of the r.o.'s grabbing everybody's first dropped mag and counting rounds to see if they could be given a bump to open. To me stuff like that is just wrong, paying a big entry fee + hotel + travel + vacation time + put in gobs of practice & then having your opportunity squashed over trivia is not the fun and fellowship that most people participate in the sport for. 

At Nationals, I'd expect you know the rules and the penalties for non-compliance.  This sort of dovetails into the other thread about match sign-ups, matches getting full, etc.  Nationals is not the place for mollycoddling.

[teros135]

16 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

At Nationals, I'd expect you know the rules and the penalties for non-compliance.  This sort of dovetails into the other thread about match sign-ups, matches getting full, etc.  Nationals is not the place for mollycoddling.

We'd expect competitors to know the rules and penalties at ALL, matches, yes?  Why wouldn't they know the rules?  This one isn't complicated, isn't arcane, isn't open to interpretation, isn't hidden in "fine print" somewhere? 

Why do we keep picking at this issue, anyway?  It's not difficult at all.

[teros135]

On 12/15/2016 at 8:05 AM, IHAVEGAS said:

I think the rule is very harsh and a procedural makes a whole lot more sense. Good r.o.'s are counting shots and a deliberate cheater is going to be sharp enough to know that he is a lot more likely to get busted than to gain an advantage on the table start. Even if a cheater somewhere did sneak by, this sport is supposed to be about having fun so it is worth weighing the priorities between some person somewhere gaining an advantage that probably will not make any difference at the end of the day, and peeing all over some new guys post toasties. 

There is a rational that after the new guy gets bitch slapped he/she will remember it, but I can see no benefit to the sport from bitch slapping new shooters with 'gotcha' technicalities. 

When I see gotcha baloney I try to make sure that any newer shooters on my squad are warned about it. 

There's no "gotcha" here.  It's clearly stated in the rules.  No tricks.  Just pay attention.  I've been close myself, and paid attention thereafter (so far, at least). 

You know, it's more of a "gotcha" for all the other Production shooters when someone loads to 11 on an unloaded-start stage that has three sections of  5 targets each (thinking of a real LII match I've shot).  Beep -load the gun, shoot 10, reload (but don't have to rack), shoot 10, reload (but don't have to rack), shoot 10 - and you have an extra round for a pick-up shot that nobody else has.  Saving time on the reloads and you have that extra shot available. 

How many penalties, and when, in this scenario?  One penalty wouldn't cover the advantages gained.  Even 3 (for each mag used with too many rounds) wouldn't be fair to the other shooters.  30 (for each shot fired in an illegal mag) would be too much.  So the Founding Fathers of the Rule Book just said "keep it to the Division limit or shoot in Open, where they have more in the mag".  (And you probably won't do that again, and everybody in earshot will have a heads-up.) 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, mreed911 said:

At Nationals, I'd expect you know the rules and the penalties for non-compliance.

 

45 minutes ago, teros135 said:

We'd expect competitors to know the rules and penalties at ALL, matches, yes?

I agree. 

This thread was about whether or not the penalty was a bit harsh. I think so, others think not, no worries. 

[Full mag]

Why not move to limited instead of open?

  I understand that it is on the shooter but if he or she was moved to limited he or she still maybe able to compete at a competitive level and it wouldn't be as such as a disadvantage as being moved to open division.

 I understand rules are rules, but just wanted to throw it out there. 

[Gary Stevens]

Because those who were elected to make these decisions chose a move to open. 

[teros135]

1 hour ago, Full mag said:

Why not move to limited instead of open?

  I understand that it is on the shooter but if he or she was moved to limited he or she still maybe able to compete at a competitive level and it wouldn't be as such as a disadvantage as being moved to open division.

 I understand rules are rules, but just wanted to throw it out there. 

Maybe move to Revolver.  Yeah, revolver.

[IHAVEGAS]

11 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

Because those who were elected to make these decisions

From what I can gather from face to face conversations that is a real can of worms, tried to start a thread on the history of the rules and who is currently on the rules committee and could not get any takers. Seems to be the sort of thing where mysterious people in black cloaks gather at midnight. 

[teros135]

Yes, it's a conspiracy.  Everything's a conspiracy.  They're coming to get us...

[IHAVEGAS]

12 minutes ago, teros135 said:

Yes, it's a conspiracy.  Everything's a conspiracy.  They're coming to get us...

Naw.

For it to be a conspiracy there would need to be things kept secret and a group who would quickly stifle questions.

Oh.

Wait.

Never mind. 

[teros135]

27 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Naw.

For it to be a conspiracy there would need to be things kept secret and a group who would quickly stifle questions.

Oh.

Wait.

Never mind. 

If you think our sport is full of conspiracies perhaps you'd be happier spending your time somewhere else.

[IHAVEGAS]

Just now, teros135 said:

If you think our sport is full of conspiracies perhaps you'd be happier spending your time somewhere else.

This is the quickly stifle part I was thinking of  

[GrumpyOne]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Naw.

For it to be a conspiracy there would need to be things kept secret and a group who would quickly stifle questions.

Oh.

Wait.

Never mind. 

[teros135]

54 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

This is the quickly stifle part I was thinking of  

You're only "stifled" if you think you are.  

[Gary Stevens]

The DNROI Is always on the rules committee. I was on it for a period of time during my tenure. I believe Rick Steel is your AD, send him an e-mail and ask him. I'm sure he will provide the information. If Rick has been abducted by space aliens and is undergoing a vigorous probing, contact the President.