DQ

[wingnut]

I hope I get this right.   At todays match a shooter at make ready with his 1911 Holstered with the safety off DQ. Then the RO took the unsafe gun out of the shooters holster to make it safe. Was the RO right to take the gun out of the holster?

[Sarge]

2 minutes ago, wingnut said:

I hope I get this right.   At todays match a shooter at make ready with his 1911 Holstered with the safety off DQ. Then the RO took the unsafe gun out of the shooters holster to make it safe. Was the RO right to take the gun out of the holster?

No. The RO should have told the shooter to carefully engage the safety THEN to unload and show clear. 

[wingnut]

That was my thinking the RO does not know the shooter or the holster or the gun. It would have been very sad to see the shooter take one in the leg.

[mach1soldier]

Reaching for another shooters loaded gun isn't a very bright move. 

[teros135]

Why do you say that?

 Apparently there are a lot of not-very-bright cops, then.  

[PatJones]

No. The RO should have told the shooter to carefully engage the safety THEN to unload and show clear. 

"Engage the safety" isn't a range command.

[mach1soldier]

Maybe it's just my military training and years spent overseas, but someone else manipulating my firearm when I'm capable of following orders, makes me nervous. Especially when loaded and holstered. I trust myself to draw a pistol without shooting my leg. Not everyone else.

Cops maybe comfortable disarming someone else but I guarantee they don't like people reaching for their holstered firearm.

The reality is just tell the guy to unload and show clear.

[ChuckS]

22 minutes ago, PatJones said:

"Engage the safety" isn't a range command.

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

[ktm300]

6 hours ago, mach1soldier said:

The reality is just tell the guy to unload and show clear.

+1

[bret]

11 hours ago, mach1soldier said:

Reaching for another shooters loaded gun isn't a very bright move. 

Happened to me at Nationals, the CRO running me didn't like how i.put my gun on the table for a table start, the way he abruptly shoved my gun forward surprised me.

Then he took magazines off my belt as I was in the seated and ready position.

[Sarge]

12 hours ago, PatJones said:

"Engage the safety" isn't a range command.

Not every word an RO says needs to be written in a book somewhere. Typically yes. But not always.

Regardless of how it gets done that's what needs to happen. EXCEPT for touching a shooters gun when he's not expecting it. Nice way to get bitch slapped

 

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, bret said:

Happened to me at Nationals, the CRO running me didn't like how i.put my gun on the table for a table start, the way he abruptly shoved my gun forward surprised me.

Then he took magazines off my belt as I was in the seated and ready position.

He needed bitch slapped too. Just goes to show you that "Nationals" means very little in USPSA. RO's should be above reproach at that level. 

[dbagwell]

Absolutely not!  

8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions

The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun.

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, dbagwell said:

Absolutely not!  

8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions

The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun.

that actually addresses a completely different situation, fwiw.

[Gary Stevens]

8 hours ago, ktm300 said:

+1

Absolutely.

We had to DQ several shooters at the Single Stack last year for failure to engage the safety when holstered.  I think this happened because the shooters were used to shooting a gun platform that didn't have a thumb safety.

Normal range commands are all that is required. ULSC gets the job done.

[dbagwell]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the only situation where the RO is permitted to handle a competitor's gun is to retrieve a dropped gun.

[Gary Stevens]

Mostly correct. 

You could always help a new shooter, or any shooter for that matter, at their request. For instance to clear a double feed.

[Fuelie777]

Unload and show Clear.  I have had this happed to me as an RO twice, and I responded the same.  Then the debate I had the safety on, and then I point out the 8.1 rules on the handgun ready conditions.  We as RO's are always looking for when the safety is on when the gun is holstered. 

[George Jones]

I will throw out a contrary opinion.

Call me overly cautious if you will, but I would not want the gun or the safety manipulated if the loaded gun is holstered with the safety off.  I am not willing to "trust" someone's gun to be perfectly functional.  I will not allow anything which might cause the hammer to fall on a loaded chamber.  In my opinion, my primary responsibility is to prevent anything which might cause that gun to discharge while pointed at the shooter's leg or feet.  It may be a case of one in a thousand, but those odds are not good enough for me.

If the shooter was sufficiently careless to not engage the safety, I consider him too fuzzy to do anything with that gun until after I take control and clear it.  After the STOP command, I will have the shooter fold his arms and inform him of what I will be doing.  I would block the hammer and take the gun out of the holster, clear it in the usual manner and either return it to the shooter's holster or call for a bag.  Doing it that way also allows the shooter to see for himself that the safety was not applied.  Once Range is Clear.....  DQ.

Safety comes first. 

[Sarge]

5 minutes ago, George Jones said:

I will throw out a contrary opinion.

Call me overly cautious if you will, but I would not want the gun or the safety manipulated if the loaded gun is holstered with the safety off.  I am not willing to "trust" someone's gun to be perfectly functional.  I will not allow anything which might cause the hammer to fall on a loaded chamber.  In my opinion, my primary responsibility is to prevent anything which might cause that gun to discharge while pointed at the shooter's leg or feet.  It may be a case of one in a thousand, but those odds are not good enough for me.

If the shooter was sufficiently careless to not engage the safety, I consider him too fuzzy to do anything with that gun until after I take control and clear it.  After the STOP command, I will have the shooter fold his arms and inform him of what I will be doing.  I would block the hammer and take the gun out of the holster, clear it in the usual manner and either return it to the shooter's holster or call for a bag.  Doing it that way also allows the shooter to see for himself that the safety was not applied.  Once Range is Clear.....  DQ.

Safety comes first. 

The only thing I would worry about is the gun somehow going off no matter how careful you are. I don't want to be the RO that shot a shooter. I would prefer he shot himself in that case.

Yeah, it's a stretch but not impossible.

edited to add: OMG GEORGE "cross your arms", is not a range command!!!!!!!!

Edited November 15, 2016 by Sarge

[waktasz]

I agree! Imagine that the trigger is somehow resting on a piece of t-shirt and at the moment you try to trap the hammer the gun settles down lower into the holster and it blows the guy's pinky toe off.

[PatJones]

I will throw out a contrary opinion.

Call me overly cautious if you will, but I would not want the gun or the safety manipulated if the loaded gun is holstered with the safety off.  I am not willing to "trust" someone's gun to be perfectly functional.  I will not allow anything which might cause the hammer to fall on a loaded chamber.  In my opinion, my primary responsibility is to prevent anything which might cause that gun to discharge while pointed at the shooter's leg or feet.  It may be a case of one in a thousand, but those odds are not good enough for me.

If the shooter was sufficiently careless to not engage the safety, I consider him too fuzzy to do anything with that gun until after I take control and clear it.  After the STOP command, I will have the shooter fold his arms and inform him of what I will be doing.  I would block the hammer and take the gun out of the holster, clear it in the usual manner and either return it to the shooter's holster or call for a bag.  Doing it that way also allows the shooter to see for himself that the safety was not applied.  Once Range is Clear.....  DQ.

Safety comes first. 

This is -not- how things would be handled after the DQ if I was the shooter. Not a chance in ..... I'm going to let another person take the loaded gun off my belt.

[bret]

19 hours ago, George Jones said:

I will throw out a contrary opinion.

Call me overly cautious if you will, but I would not want the gun or the safety manipulated if the loaded gun is holstered with the safety off.  I am not willing to "trust" someone's gun to be perfectly functional.  I will not allow anything which might cause the hammer to fall on a loaded chamber.  In my opinion, my primary responsibility is to prevent anything which might cause that gun to discharge while pointed at the shooter's leg or feet.  It may be a case of one in a thousand, but those odds are not good enough for me.

If the shooter was sufficiently careless to not engage the safety, I consider him too fuzzy to do anything with that gun until after I take control and clear it.  After the STOP command, I will have the shooter fold his arms and inform him of what I will be doing.  I would block the hammer and take the gun out of the holster, clear it in the usual manner and either return it to the shooter's holster or call for a bag.  Doing it that way also allows the shooter to see for himself that the safety was not applied.  Once Range is Clear.....  DQ.

Safety comes first. 

only time an R.O. will touch my gun is if I drop it, or at chrono.

Where in the rule book does it allow an R.O. to touch my gun in any other circumstances?

[bret]

On 11/14/2016 at 2:43 PM, dbagwell said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the only situation where the RO is permitted to handle a competitor's gun is to retrieve a dropped gun.

yes or at Chrono.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I've seen RO's, many times, handle a beginner's gun.   Helps out all the way around.