Steel moving target stops behind steel no-shoot

[rhett45acp]

Question.

I have a Texas star with a steel no-shoot in front at the bottom.  Shooter engages star and cleans 4 plates and the fifth one stops with only about 1/8 of the target availibe behind the steel no-shoot.  Is the shooter just SOL ?

Thanks!

 

 

[High Lord Gomer]

I think so.  All of the plate is "the highest scoring area" and 1/8 is definitely "a portion".

9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule 9.2.4.4). See Appendix B2 or B3 for the percent of target to be pre-sented.

[DagoRed]

Sure sounds like he's SOL. I don't remember anything in the rules about minimum amount of steel available w a NS in front. Only for 25% of A zones not the cardboards. guys would probably be cursing the stage designer. 

 

Red

[Nimitz]

one of many reasons why you never see these at Lvl II & above matches ....

[Beef15]

I think so.  All of the plate is "the highest scoring area" and 1/8 is definitely "a portion".

9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule 9.2.4.4). See Appendix B2 or B3 for the percent of target to be pre-sented.

I wish someone had known this yesterday so they could put the complainer on our squad to rest.

Also suspect the squad two in front of us that backed things up over an hour was doing reshoots (6) for the same reason.

[lorenzobishop040]

Sounds like he is out of luck

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[d_striker]

2 hours ago, Beef15 said:

 

 

I wish someone had known this yesterday so they could put the complainer on our squad to rest.

Also suspect the squad two in front of us that backed things up over an hour was doing reshoots (6) for the same reason.
 

 

 

 

Sounds like a stupid stage.

[rhett45acp]

4 hours ago, DagoRed said:

Sure sounds like he's SOL. I don't remember anything in the rules about minimum amount of steel available w a NS in front. Only for 25% of A zones not the cardboards. guys would probably be cursing the stage designer. 

 

Red

Exactly.  I see nothing in the rule book about amount of steel that must be availibe.  If the steel is treated as an "A", then 25% must be availibe.  Under the mentality of SOL, what would prevent a setup of two static steel no shoots with a 1" gap and a steel shoot behind.  An absurd example, but in my scenario this is precisely the end result - moving or not.

I read through 8 pages of Enos search results on this subject and really cannot find a answer of "don't do this - per x.x.x".  Seems an area of lacking in the RB, or I am missing something.  Now paper no-shoots are a complete different issue and it seems folks have a good grasp of this.

 

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, d_striker said:

 

Sounds like a stupid stage.

+1. shooter is out of luck for shooting matches with stupid and poorly designed stages. Hopefully if the stage designer insists on annoying crap like no-shoots in front of texas stars he will at least put slightly to one side, or provide and alternate shooting area from which the plate can be safely engaged.

[Poppa Bear]

An easy fix would be to designate one of the 5 plates as a NS.  This way if shot properly the NS  target would be the one resting behind the NS plate.  

[toothandnail]

Out of luck, the whole point of a setup like that is to force shooting a moving target.

Any shooter who will finish in the top 25% will clean the star easily before it would come to a complete stop anyway.

Any shooter who waits until it stops, SHOULD have moved on long before that occurs

[EEH]

Rhett I didn't miss any of them !

[rhett45acp]

Still does clear the point.  The question came up by more than one and I figured I would ask the all knowing Enos crowd. 

Anyway, it is clearer point with paper targets.  There is a clear definition in the rules for paper (how much availibe).  But steel is still a question.  I was asked about an in and out no-shoot that hid a pepper popper.  That was a much easier point, you plug the no shoot - REF.

I remember the days of split USPSA poppers.  I have not seen one in long time.  The rules fixed this. 

 

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, toothandnail said:

Out of luck, the whole point of a setup like that is to force shooting a moving target.

Any shooter who will finish in the top 25% will clean the star easily before it would come to a complete stop anyway.

Any shooter who waits until it stops, SHOULD have moved on long before that occurs

exactly, so the whole point of putting a no-shoot in front is simply to make the match less fun and more demoralizing for less-skilled shooters, while having no significant effect on the top dogs. What on earth would make that seem like a sensible idea?

Edited August 22, 2016 by motosapiens

[toothandnail]

8 hours ago, motosapiens said:

exactly, so the whole point of putting a no-shoot in front is simply to make the match less fun and more demoralizing for less-skilled shooters, while having no significant effect on the top dogs. What on earth would make that seem like a sensible idea?

Why not make all targets 12" , heck go for 24", don't want to make the beginner feel bad about missing and maybe not come back. 

While you're at it remove the timer as well, or at least do away with any par time, got remember the less-skilled shooters.

And make sure there is no stage setup where shooting while moving(or moving at all) remember there are some mobility challenged shooters that may come, don't want to offend them either.

BTW: I haven't shot a USPSA match in 5-7 years, I was thinking about trying a few this fall, but if the above is what they have come to, maybe I'll rethink that.

ETA; I just now noticed what section this was posted in.

I recently shot a match that had 3, yes THREE, no shoots in front of a star, I don't think anybody quit - but it was a different kind of match

 

Edited August 22, 2016 by toothandnail

[open17]

FWIW,  putting a steel no shoot in front of a star at 5 or 7 o'clock instead of 6 o'clock eliminates the possibility of the last plate 

hiding behind it.  

[AWLAZS]

I would think you would have to leave enough plate exposed to actually hit it. I don't mind  a stage that challenges  the shooter but I hate it when its more like punishing the shooter. 

[EEH]

This was not a star,but a polish plate rack..with three no shoot plates in front of it.

If you let it come to a stop,one or two plates were almost hid. One GM with open gun tried the shot and hit no shoot and scoring plate.

back to op,it was not easy maybe 1/4 plate showing.

[ATLDave]

What is the point of this?  A good/competent shooter isn't waiting for the last plate to come to rest at the very bottom of the arc.  And stars without any hard cover/no-shoots are already pretty stressful/hard challenges for not-good shooters.  Why are you beating on the scrubs?  How is this helping to differentiate the great shooters from the merely good?  From a stage design perspective, I don't get it.  

It's like a golf hole with a bunker across the whole width of the fairway at 200-220 yards.  All the good players are going to fly that bunker.  All the poor players are going to have a hard time with the hole even if you take that bunker away.  What's the point?  To take the smallest kid's lunch money?

Edited August 22, 2016 by ATLDave

[Beef15]

1 hour ago, EEH said:

This was not a star,but a polish plate rack..with three no shoot plates in front of it.

If you let it come to a stop,one or two plates were almost hid. One GM with open gun tried the shot and hit no shoot and scoring plate.

back to op,it was not easy maybe 1/4 plate showing.

I think this is the match I was at.

I didn't think it was excessively hard, clearly some disagreed. The fast guys I saw cleared it while it was moving. I am slow, didn't go one for one so had to reload, and had to shoot my last plate between the NSs.

Not positive why the one squad had mass reshoots. Everything was moving along fine til we got there, don't think anyone was happy waiting forever in the still air and humidity to shoot their last stage.

[rowdyb]

common sense shouldn't have to be in the rule book.

i've shot a lot of generic "action pistol" matches where they liked doing things just like this. if i didn't take the time to help design and build, then i try not to complain. just deal.

whenever you're designing a stage and you get the "ohhh, this will really suck/be extra tough for shooters" coupled with an evil laugh, maybe step back and check again to see if it adds value to what you're already doing or is just "because i can".

i couldn't find anything in the rules about this scenario either. to me, seems like you're sol or possibly call it a npm?

[gerritm]

Must be a trend. Had one like this at a local match last month. Fast guys cleaned it no problems. Newer shooters got 4 plates, took their time, aimed, and hit the small portion of the plate showing. Trigger control.  It was doable. Most had slower times, but did not hit the no shoot. A couple did. Some complaints,  but most liked the challenge. I kind of liked the different stage. Need a challenge once in awhile. 

 

Gerritm 

[JAFO]

The most ridiculous I ever got was putting three scoring poppers in front of a star, with the outer two activating no-shoot swingers behind the star that swept the left and right 1/3 of the arc.  Several people shot all three poppers and then shot the star in the center 1/3.  Some realized that shooting the center popper first opened the start to be cleaned, then they shot the other two.  No one complained, and people actually seemed to enjoy it.  But I realized later that it could have been a bit of a nightmare discerning splatter from hits.

[d_striker]

22 hours ago, gerritm said:

Must be a trend. Had one like this at a local match last month. Fast guys cleaned it no problems. Newer shooters got 4 plates, took their time, aimed, and hit the small portion of the plate showing. Trigger control.  It was doable. Most had slower times, but did not hit the no shoot. A couple did. Some complaints,  but most liked the challenge. I kind of liked the different stage. Need a challenge once in awhile. 

 

Gerritm 

 

That actually sounds pretty fun.  It's also entirely different than what the OP described.  

Leaving less than 50% of a steel plate available behind a no shoot is just retarded.

[rhett45acp]

OK, I did not want to focus on the club that put this together. After a lengthy discussion with other shooters I choose to break it down to a real simple problem.  Kind of hard to illustrate the actual situation with words and did not want to appear negative to the club. 

The club that put this match on does are real good job and are super hard working folks.  The last thing I would want to do is demotivate the MD and staff.  But, sometimes a situation comes along that makes people upset.  I had brought two new shooters (c class) to this match and they were very frustrated.   So I asked if there was a rule that at a later date you could kindly offer the MD some friendly advice to consider what they are doing.   Personally, due to a physical issue, I went into this match knowing I would suck all day.  I usually suck, but it would be a grand suck day.  NOTE:  nobody on our squad re-shot the stage even though it was offered by the MD.  

Here was what I was left after 2.5 revolutions of the rear rack after my initial engagement. Then it settled into a low sway never to revolve again, with no outer plates available.  The blue are no shoots.  I could not hit wrong side of a barn Saturday, so I was not temping to thread my shots through no shoots and metal structure.  The rack was activated by a stomp pad near the beginning of the stage.  Everybody arrived at the engagement area with the rear rack spinning.  So there is no opportunity to clean while motionless.

My original question was not to focus on this day or this event.  It was simply to address (the argument I heard) paper (25%) verses steel availability and why you might not want to create a situation of a shooter being SOL.  I personally did not think a re-shoot was in order because I don't think the rules support, but as I understand, possibly other squads had re-shoots on this stage (others could confirm)????

Here is a pic.  What do you think?