Steel moving target stops behind steel no-shoot

[EEH]

What we were told about the reshoot was because they could not get the plate rack to spin..

something about the cable and steps pad.

I also could not find a rule about the plate stopping behind a no shoot.

[Mhall]

1 minute ago, EEH said:

What we were told about the reshoot was because they could not get the plate rack to spin..

something about the cable and steps pad.

I also could not find a rule about the plate stopping behind a no shoot.

I'm not aware of a rule regarding steel stopping behind a no shoot, but if a paper target is either covered or stops in a non visible position is considered "disappearing" and as long as the target has been activated, it is a no penalty mike. 

[gtown]

were the blue plates no shoots (penalties for hits and repainted between shooters) or hard cover?

 

[Beef15]

were the blue plates no shoots (penalties for hits and repainted between shooters) or hard cover?

 

Blue plates were no shoots. They weren't repainted when we shot it. they fell like the rack plates if hit.

[AWLAZS]

36 minutes ago, Beef15 said:

Blue plates were no shoots. They weren't repainted when we shot it. they fell like the rack plates if hit.

 

II would say if you hit the no shoot plate and it fell you would get a re shoot for REF. Sure you picked up a penalty for the first hit but you had an advantage for the second shot or more once the scoring rack started to move again. 

They needed to be repainted between shooters like a paper no shoot

[teros135]

12 hours ago, AWLAZS said:

 

II would say if you hit the no shoot plate and it fell you would get a re shoot for REF. Sure you picked up a penalty for the first hit but you had an advantage for the second shot or more once the scoring rack started to move again. 

They needed to be repainted between shooters like a paper no shoot

Can't figure out why they would be REF if they fell, unless there was an attempt to secure them.  10 point penalty is the same as 2 lost plates on the star.  Up to the shooter to decide?

[AWLAZS]

I will have to look at the rules. Once the no shoot steel falls it changes the course of fire. 

[JAFO]

With regard to the no-shoot plates:

4.3.1.8 Metal no-shoot targets which are designed to fall when hit, but which fail to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit, shall incur the penalty or penalties in accordance with Rule 9.4.3. Failure to fall is not grounds for a reshoot per range equipment failure.

 

So you'd get the no-shoot whether the plate falls or not, no REF.  But it could be a scoring call challenge if it doesn't fall and they weren't painting the plates.  Still, it's not good design when it can end up like that.

Edited August 24, 2016 by JAFO

[Mhall]

7 minutes ago, JAFO said:

With regard to the no-shoot plates:

4.3.1.8 Metal no-shoot targets which are designed to fall when hit, but which fail to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit, shall incur the penalty or penalties in accordance with Rule 9.4.3. Failure to fall is not grounds for a reshoot per range equipment failure.

 

So you'd get the no-shoot whether the plate falls or not, no REF.  But it could be a scoring call challenge if it doesn't fall and they weren't painting the plates.  Still, it's not good design when it can end up like that.

Seems dumb that the penalty targets don't have to operate properly but scoring targets do. 

[AWLAZS]

My buddy looked them up I guess my thinking was wrong

 

4.3.1.8 Metal no-shoot targets which are designed to fall when hit, but
which fail to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial
diameter hit, shall incur the penalty or penalties in accordance
with Rule 9.4.3. Failure to fall is not grounds for a reshoot per
range equipment failure.
4.3.1.9 Metal no-shoots targets must, if hit, be repainted after each
competitor ends their attempt at the course of fire, failing
which subsequent competitors must not be penalized for hits
visible on their surface.

[High Lord Gomer]

1 hour ago, AWLAZS said:

I will have to look at the rules. Once the no shoot steel falls it changes the course of fire. 

That makes some sense but I couldn't find support for it in the rules.

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

[rhett45acp]

Thanks for all the informative replies.   I could not really find anything concrete to say "you might not want to do this".   Yes, I was butt hurt over the prop (and others).  It was a very hot day and the match ran unusually long for this club.  As I have stated before the last thing I would want to do is demotivate peoples hard work and effort. 

So without a definitive rule I'll keep my mouth shut.  Having a week to think about the issue it may be a self correcting problem.  The match ran long due to several issues.  REF due to the prop for my squads situation was not the issue.  We had no re-shoots due to prop (one due to other steel not reset).  I do know there was a second prop issue  with a Twin Texas stars on a common axis.  When we arrived to shot the back star was taken out of play.  Evidently when shooting the front plates it was possible it would knock off rear plates.  REF.  I was told when it was setup it was thought to be OK for they do it in "3Gun".  Someone besides my whiny ass brought it up and they removed the back plates. 

All this is a learning curve.  It just helps to have something in black and white.  This seems a bit grey.  4.3.x goes through great pains explaining 50% of the calibration zone on poppers and few other things around steel.  I don't know, but I wonder when the rules where written if it ever accounted for moving plates?  Lot's of rules about moving paper, but plates???

Kind Regards,

RT

 

[ATLDave]

Just goes to show, Rhett, that following all the rules on stage construction is not the same as designing good stages.  

[High Lord Gomer]

LOL!  Yeah, if you're ever feeling constipated, post your stage design and WSB here and prepare to be schooled!