jrswanson1 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 The learning curve is steep for pistol shooters with no long-gun experience. We are seeing a lot of very experienced handgunners crawling clumsily through stages with their PCC that they would burn down with their pistol. I am sure this will just be temporary... once they get the hang of it, they should see a marked improvement. I agree. I second this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandabooks Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 We've been running a .22 rifle shoot at our indoor winter USPSA matches for as long as I've been shooting. Almost 3 years. Basically a 1 stage course of fire after the pistols have all been shot a couple times around. Can definately tell the difference between the guys who pick up the rifle once a month and the ones who have experience or training running a rifle. I imagine it would be amplified with pistol calibers over .22. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) Deleted. Sorry, reading and answering on my phone-- thought this was a different thread. Edited June 22, 2016 by jkrispies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 The learning curve is steep for pistol shooters with no long-gun experience. We are seeing a lot of very experienced handgunners crawling clumsily through stages with their PCC that they would burn down with their pistol. I am sure this will just be temporary... once they get the hang of it, they should see a marked improvement. I agree. I second this. I have been shooting a 2011 for ten years ... Tried an AR-15 last year, and didn't give it long enough to get used to the different fire control system (safety & mag release, especially). Plus, I had a mil-spec trigger and no comp ... Finally gave up on it - maybe one day I'll plunk down $1,000 for a nice AR and try it again. I shoot our local multi-gun matches with my TruBor .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbs007 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 the tighter shots are harder with pcc. easier to lean around a barricade with a pistol, including possibility to one-hand it, than with a long gun. and yes i def need reloading practice, can reload way faster with a handgun currently. I would contend that all shots are easier with a PCC. The transition and reload speed is where the pistol beats the PCC. ^^^This^^^ Shooting steel and far targets is like cheating, it's transitioning into positions and reloading skills that need to be worked on. Not sure if there will be any magazine length or capacity limit, but with a long mag over 30 rounds reloads won't be as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 There aren't any magazine restrictions, so I don't think there will be any PCC dudes without 40 rounders. They won't be reloading outside standards stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 The learning curve is steep for pistol shooters with no long-gun experience. We are seeing a lot of very experienced handgunners crawling clumsily through stages with their PCC that they would burn down with their pistol. I am sure this will just be temporary... once they get the hang of it, they should see a marked improvement. I agree. I second this. As a somewhat experienced pistol shooter I can verify this. I have tried working with the carbine in dry fire (local match hasn't allowed PCC yet) and I feel like I am in C class again. I look forward to learning to shoot a long gun in a short space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaster113 Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 Just checked the scores from this past match. One of our resident Masters also shot PCC and a handgun. Both of our stage times were slower on the field courses with the PCC, but we were both faster on a speed shoot with paper/steel. We are both LE with long gun experience, but evidently not enough of it and it showed in the stage times haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 At yesterday's practice, one of the guys who is good with any gun shot one stage with pistol and rifle. The stage was pretty open: no tight quarters and his ability to hit targets a little further away quickly with the rifle reduced the distance he had to run, so he scored better with the rifle. I don't think he'd done as well with the one that had tight fault lines, leaning around a corner on the weak hand side, shooting through a small window, and narrow gaps where you had to shift to get all the targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 In a typical USPSA stage, I don't think PCC will ever beat good open shooters. There will be the occasional stage where PCC will work out better, but Open will remain king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I'm not shooting PCC (yet!!!!) but I shoot rimfire rifle on steel and practice with a USPSA match proven GM who uses a rimfire pistol on steel. He thinks that if he practices both hard, he'd be evenly fast with either. IMHO, I think the average, practiced shooter in USPSA competition will be better with a PCC but when it comes to really high end GM's, the edge will go to an open pistol because it's lighter and more maneuverable.... but it's a rare shooter who could pull that off. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumtoc Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 This was from my local match earlier this month Doc, thanks for posting the video. Great to actually see stages shot with a PCC. Question: at around 0:48 of the video you lean left around a barricade to shoot a tight target. I see that the gun is canted left for this but is it still contacting your shoulder? Can we instead legally shoot tight shots like this by just pushing the gun off the shoulder and holding it out two handed? (Not trying to make an RO call on you, this scenario is what I need to figure out for PCC........) Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) What can't see is the position of my feet, my center of gravity was low. While it look like a somewhat drastic lean, in reality it wasn't. You'll see me cant the gun but that's more of the side effect of keeping a low stance and pivoting on my hips while bending forward to staying low. Edited June 23, 2016 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 The gun doesn't have to be against your shoulder to engage a target same as you don't have to look over your sights on your handgun. Just as long as you're engaging a target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Yes it does have to be shouldered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Yes it does have to be shouldered. Does shoulder position mean shouldered? Or does it mean in the area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 This is just my initial assessment based on a handful of matches I've shot with my PCC, both Outlaw and USPSA. a OPEN shooter will stand toe-to-toe with a PCC shooter of the same skill set. The advantage will always go to the Open shooter on the reason of Major vs Minor scores, and there are very few instances that a PCC shooter has a advantage over OPEN. If any movement is needed prior to the actual shooting the time advantage of low ready is negated, but on "stand on draw scenario" the PCC will have the advantage, specially if the requirement for the open shooter requires to be turned up range. The no need to reload isn't as big advantage as most would hope, 30-32 round field stages are usually huge enough that the open shooter can find a spot in his stage plan to get a mag in without finding himself in a bind, but with that said they'll have the advantage when the PCC is forced into a reload. In my video I did a decent reload but I unless some modification can be done such as a larger magwell, it will always be faster to reload into a pistol. Now with that said, while the reloads are slower with a PCC gun, you can stay on target and reload the gun, where with a Open gun you have to break the sight alignment and shooting grip temporary. Long targets, honestly the advantage is toward the open shooter due to Major vs minor scoring, the only time this is neutralized and maybe advantage to the PCC shooter is on Long range partials, this tends to slow everyone down, but with the ability to track the dot better with a PCC gun, we can guarantee better hits faster vs open. To take advantage of being a PCC shooter, you really need to shoot on the move on every opportunity that you have when there is ground to cover, even with partials being in the way. You have to be aggressive on moving and shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Maybe Curtis..but you dropped a lot of points shooting PCC. I know you like to go fast, but just a stitch longer, shooting PCC, gets you a lot more points. Being able to figure out what the overall HHF on a stage will be gives some input as to speed vs. points trade-off. I don't even care about times on my stages shooting USPSA, but I will try to guess the HHF, or ask one of the Ms or GMs in Limited or Open what their HF was and if they shot it well and incorporate that into my stage planning. That is what gave me the idea to shoot stage 5 the way I did. Putting 45% on a top Limited GM...advantage PCC, not shooter. Long steel, advantage PCC over Open...no question in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Yes don't get me wrong, You are going to need to get your hits if you want to do well. You either have to shoot 10% better or shoot 10% faster, I elected to go with speed for that match since I was already shooting production, and really I just wanted to rip with the PCC gun. Steel no question PCC will be a hell of a lot faster. I'm curious you have video of stage 5? I've only seen the landmine stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Why??? USPSA PCC Rules. 6 Must have stock attached and must be fired from shoulder position. **Note: Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed—must be attached to the carbine and fired from the shoulder** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 USPSA Multigun Rules. So why can I shoot a 308 without using my shoulder and can't with my puny 9mm >when< shooting PCC I CAN shoot off the shoulder with the PCC if I am not shooting in PCC division. Weird? 5.1.2.1 Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited. Rifles and Shotguns must be fitted with a stock, enabling it to be fired from the shoulder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 I wish I had stage 5 video Curtis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 I doubt the rule will stay. It would be even harder to shoot targets while leaning if you can't bring the gun off your shoulder. There's no penalty listed for not doing it anyway. What're they gonna do, bump you to open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Why??? USPSA PCC Rules. 6 Must have stock attached and must be fired from shoulder position. **Note: Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed—must be attached to the carbine and fired from the shoulder** It was due to the ATF rulings on the SIG brace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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