racerba Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Websters online dictionary...cock [1] n 5 a the hammer of a firearm b its position when the firearm is ready to be discharged A Glock is NOT ready to be discharged when the striker is reset... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Websters online dictionary... cock [1] n 5 a the hammer of a firearm b its position when the firearm is ready to be discharged A Glock is NOT ready to be discharged when the striker is reset... Ding Ding, we have a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Grumpy, The definition you posted shows a Glock is not cocked when the slide is forward and the trigger is set and in the ready position, such as when it is loaded at the MR command. Read definition #9, Bret.if a round is in the chamber, nothing else needs be done other than pulling the trigger... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Grumpy, The definition you posted shows a Glock is not cocked when the slide is forward and the trigger is set and in the ready position, such as when it is loaded at the MR command. Read definition #9, Bret.if a round is in the chamber, nothing else needs be done other than pulling the trigger... Pulling the trigger cocks the striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 No, I don't...and no one would either....but the point remains, that pistol is cocked...Technically, by the rules, you can't start a competitor using a striker fired gun on a loaded start... I saw your earlier post, but show me support of that definition? Websters online dictionary...cock [1] n 1 the male of the domestic fowl 2 a any other male bird b the male of certain other animals, such as the lobster c (as modifier) a cock sparrow 3 short for → stopcock → weathercock 4 a taboo slang word for → penis 5 a the hammer of a firearm b its position when the firearm is ready to be discharged 6 (Brit) informal a friend, mate, or fellow 7 a jaunty or significant tilting or turning upwards a cock of the head 8 (Brit) informal nonsense vb 9 tr to set the firing pin, hammer, or breech block of (a firearm) so that a pull on the trigger will release it and thus fire the weapon 10 tr to set the shutter mechanism of (a camera) so that the shutter can be tripped by pressing the shutter-release button 11 tr; sometimes foll by: up to raise in an alert or jaunty manner 12 intr to stick or stand up conspicuously, (See also) → cockup you forgot one:13. See also Now that's trolling... That might be funny if it were true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 (edited) Grumpy, The definition you posted shows a Glock is not cocked when the slide is forward and the trigger is set and in the ready position, such as when it is loaded at the MR command. Read definition #9, Bret.if a round is in the chamber, nothing else needs be done other than pulling the trigger... WRONG...it says "...pulling the trigger will RELEASE it..." If just pulling the trigger while there is a round in the chamber, then ALL double action firearms are now cocked by your definition... Edited May 20, 2016 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Grumpy, The definition you posted shows a Glock is not cocked when the slide is forward and the trigger is set and in the ready position, such as when it is loaded at the MR command. Read definition #9, Bret.if a round is in the chamber, nothing else needs be done other than pulling the trigger... WRONG...it says "...pulling the trigger will RELEASE it..."If just pulling the trigger while there is a round in the chamber, then ALL double action firearms are now cocked by your definition... Not my definition... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 And that's the bottom line - "not by MY definition" (emphasis added). This is all about one person's definition of things, and the dozens of posts here have demonstrated that nothing will change his definitions, or his perspective. He knows, and we don't. And it's a troll because it's not about finding truth, or promoting safety, or enhancing the sport, or coming to some useful conclusion. It's about arguing endlessly, no matter what anybody says. IMHO, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 And that's the bottom line - "not by MY definition" (emphasis added). This is all about one person's definition of things, and the dozens of posts here have demonstrated that nothing will change his definitions, or his perspective. He knows, and we don't. And it's a troll because it's not about finding truth, or promoting safety, or enhancing the sport, or coming to some useful conclusion. It's about arguing endlessly, no matter what anybody says. IMHO, of course. Without discussion, nothing ever changes. Without discord, the status quo remains. Even if it was/is my opinion, does that make it any less valid for me to express? Has anyone ever told you that your opinion was not valid on this forum?If, in the course of discussion, perhaps someone finds another way to see something, looks at something from a different perspective, thinks outside the box...then any of this will be worth it. Perhaps you are ok with things being stagnant, with things being stuck at the status quo, I for one am not. Whether this discussion effects a change ot not is moot. What it has done is made people read the rules, discuss the rules, and quite possibly learn something that they didn't know. If that is a troll, then everyone who participated in this thread is guilty... Step back and remember what this forum is about...it is about sharing ideas, knowledge, opinions... This is from the forum guidelines... Intent This Forum is for firearm, technique, and conceptual discussions pertaining to training and competition. (And various unrelated topics.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 If, in the course of discussion, perhaps someone finds another way to see something, looks at something from a different perspective, thinks outside the box...then any of this will be worth it. there's thinking outside the box and then there's being just out there...like teros135 said, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing...every point you bring up has been argued with rules, or some kind of proof yet you keep bringing up the same argument...you do not continue with the discussion and argue the proof...THAT is trolling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 And that's the bottom line - "not by MY definition" (emphasis added). This is all about one person's definition of things, and the dozens of posts here have demonstrated that nothing will change his definitions, or his perspective. He knows, and we don't. And it's a troll because it's not about finding truth, or promoting safety, or enhancing the sport, or coming to some useful conclusion. It's about arguing endlessly, no matter what anybody says. IMHO, of course. Without discussion, nothing ever changes. Without discord, the status quo remains. Even if it was/is my opinion, does that make it any less valid for me to express? Has anyone ever told you that your opinion was not valid on this forum?If, in the course of discussion, perhaps someone finds another way to see something, looks at something from a different perspective, thinks outside the box...then any of this will be worth it. Perhaps you are ok with things being stagnant, with things being stuck at the status quo, I for one am not. Whether this discussion effects a change ot not is moot. What it has done is made people read the rules, discuss the rules, and quite possibly learn something that they didn't know. If that is a troll, then everyone who participated in this thread is guilty... Step back and remember what this forum is about...it is about sharing ideas, knowledge, opinions... This is from the forum guidelines... Intent This Forum is for firearm, technique, and conceptual discussions pertaining to training and competition. (And various unrelated topics.) Thanks for the lecture, Grumpy, but I don't think I needed it. I know what this forum is for, and you know by reading my posts that I participate in just such discussions. But the act of just arguing endlessly about something - and something that just about everyone else seems to agree is already understood and settled - doesn't really go far in furthering understanding. And it's not necessary to harangue endlessly, if all you want to do is to make a point. Make the point, let others have their say, and move on. I guess we'll see if that is the case by how much longer this "discussion" goes on. I think part of my reaction to this part of the thread has been from not seeing any direction to it. I can't see what you want, what outcome you desire. It just seems like argument, for argument's sake. If there's a need to change something, let's propose that and get together to support it. If there's no goal, what's the point, other than arguing about what the meaning of "is" is, as a poster said earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 If, in the course of discussion, perhaps someone finds another way to see something, looks at something from a different perspective, thinks outside the box...then any of this will be worth it.there's thinking outside the box and then there's being just out there...like teros135 said, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing...every point you bring up has been argued with rules, or some kind of proof yet you keep bringing up the same argument...you do not continue with the discussion and argue the proof...THAT is trolling...Show me proof that a Glock is de-cocked when loaded....not opinions expressed here or in the rules, but actual proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 If, in the course of discussion, perhaps someone finds another way to see something, looks at something from a different perspective, thinks outside the box...then any of this will be worth it.there's thinking outside the box and then there's being just out there...like teros135 said, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing...every point you bring up has been argued with rules, or some kind of proof yet you keep bringing up the same argument...you do not continue with the discussion and argue the proof...THAT is trolling...Show me proof that a Glock is de-cocked when loaded....not opinions expressed here or in the rules, but actual proof. It can't be fired unless the striker is pulled further rearward than the set position it is in when the slide is forward. Argue you all you want but you are wrong. You should take your own advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Isn't the XD fully cocked from racking the slide and pulling the trigger just releases the striker? If so then it's really SA, and yet it's allowed in Production...just divided by zero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Show me proof that a Glock is de-cocked when loaded....not opinions expressed here or in the rules, but actual proof. We have shown by your citing of definition of what SA is and what DA is AND what cocked is...the proof is also in the video you posted... 1 - by your definition of cocked - the firearm is ready to be fired whereby the pulling of the trigger RELEASES the hammer or striker. - Glock is not ready to be fired when the striker is reset and pulling the trigger on the Glock does not RELEASE the striker...it pulls the striker back before releasing it... What other proof do you require? The proof is in the pudding (in your video, in this case)!!! Just because you don't agree with the mechanism doesn't make you right and everybody else wrong. I have nothing else to say about this...any more would just be repeating myself...not my problem if you cannot accept the facts and cannot provide proof that the striker is "cocked", by any definition...partial definition (as you tried earlier) does not count!!!! Anyway, we've taken the subject of the OP in a totally wrong direction... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 (edited) Isn't the XD fully cocked from racking the slide and pulling the trigger just releases the striker? If so then it's really SA, and yet it's allowed in Production...just divided by zero that's another topic that has been hashed already in the past...I do agree with you there...however, the slight movement rearward seems to be enough for the powers that be to rule it DA...i'm not going to go into that discussion here beyond this... Edited May 20, 2016 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 If, in the course of discussion, perhaps someone finds another way to see something, looks at something from a different perspective, thinks outside the box...then any of this will be worth it.there's thinking outside the box and then there's being just out there...like teros135 said, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing...every point you bring up has been argued with rules, or some kind of proof yet you keep bringing up the same argument...you do not continue with the discussion and argue the proof...THAT is trolling...Show me proof that a Glock is de-cocked when loaded....not opinions expressed here or in the rules, but actual proof. If you work a major match and refuse to start anyone with a glock, you will get all the proof you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Under 10.5.3, the competitor can safely and intentionally place the handgun on the ground or other stable object, provided that "the handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1" (among other options). For the striker guns, that would be the same as when it was holstered at MR, with the mag in, round chambered, and finger outside the trigger guard, under the double-action rules. In that condition, the Glocks et al. can't go off (unless the trigger is pulled, of course). That's one of the conditions of the Feds certifying modern guns for safety, like the "flying saucer" test in which the gun is thrown spinning through the air and lands on concrete without going off. That's the purpose of the trigger safety and the internal safeties. And the ready condition as defined for the glock is "chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.", which technically it isn't de-cocked... The Glock Hammer is in my tool bag -- so it's always fully down and decocked, unless I'm holding it and have cocked my arm to strike something with it........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Right now, I see 2 ways it could go....DQ, or no DQ...I could support either way... DQ for grounding a loaded gun without it being fully de-cocked...NO DQ for the gun being in the ready condition (although I think the ready condition, by the rule, is not entirely accurate either (as the ready condition also says de-cocked). How can it be a DQ? The gun is placed on the ground in the ready position. It is not de-cocked.... OK -- if you're going to go there, then the safety is applied, and it's either akin to an SA gun or a selective action gun...... Either way -- not an issue..... I've attended RO classes 3 times, and been run with a Glock by any number of RMs and RMIs, in addition to the far numerous cadre or ROs and CROs. Oddly, they all managed to deal with the situation..... Are you bored, at an away game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Grumpy, The definition you posted shows a Glock is not cocked when the slide is forward and the trigger is set and in the ready position, such as when it is loaded at the MR command. Read definition #9, Bret.if a round is in the chamber, nothing else needs be done other than pulling the trigger... Well that's not actually true. The safety in the trigger face needs to be depressed as well. You can yank on the sides of the trigger all you want without firing the gun...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Grumpy, The definition you posted shows a Glock is not cocked when the slide is forward and the trigger is set and in the ready position, such as when it is loaded at the MR command. Read definition #9, Bret.if a round is in the chamber, nothing else needs be done other than pulling the trigger... Well that's not actually true. The safety in the trigger face needs to be depressed as well. You can yank on the sides of the trigger all you want without firing the gun......Nik, you know that pulling the trigger pulls that on a Glock...perhaps your reading comprehension does need a touch up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 His hand hurts... I guess this is an acceptable distraction. Carry on, Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mainspring Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 (edited) I don't really want to get involved in this discussion, but.... 8.1.5 In respect of handguns used at USPSA matches, the following definitions apply: 8.1.5.1 “Single Action” means activation of the trigger causes a single action to occur (i.e. the hammer or striker falls). 8.1.5.2 “Double Action” means activation of the trigger causes more than a single action to occur (i.e. the hammer or striker rises or retracts, then falls). 8.1.5.3 “Selective Action” means that the handgun can be operated in either “Single Action” or “Double Action” modes. At least I have it easy... Shooting a "single action" in production and the safety is engaged by removing my finger from the trigger. Edited May 21, 2016 by mainspring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 I stop people when they need to be stopped, not so I can hold their hands and ask if they are ok. If the shooter can get back up and keep shooting, I'm going to let him do so, and not penalize his competitors by giving out unjustified reshoots. As a shooter, you own your run, including the falls. I'm on board with this too. I rely on what I see and hear, and while I may decide not to utter "Stop" at one moment in time doesn't mean that I don't do it a split second later, when something has changed and tells me that's the prudent course of action...... (Taking a break to get back to the original point of the post.) And that's primarily my point. Will I stop everyone who slips and falls? No. I think it's an RO's responsibility to stop someone who is in jeopardy of not being able to continue safely or if the RO believes the competitor may have lost control of the gun. Competitive equity takes a back seat to safety. If I had a doubt in my mind and didn't stop the competitor and then something happened later that could have been prevented by stopping the competitor, I'd feel horrible--especially if someone got further injured or injured a spectator and I could have prevented it. Now, if a guy slips and falls on his fourth point of contact and gets back up and I don't have that moment of doubt? Keep shooting, sparky--I hope you salvage your run and make up for it later. At least you'll have a good story to tell at lunch with your buds. It's really about whether I feel comfortable with the safe conduct of a course of fire subsequent to a fall. Again, the worst outcome is that the competitor gets a reshoot and doesn't biff it the second time around. Is competitive equity really that important? It's important, but safety is overriding. Your story about completing a motorcycle race with a torn ACL is not really germane to the conversation, because we're talking about completely different sets of rules and circumstances. The fact that you've not seen the situation in running thousands of competitors is also not germane. All circumstances vary wildly, and the RO has the responsibility to maintain safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 sounds like we are all in agreement. Of course if you think a shooter is unsafe to continue, it's your duty to stop him. OTOH, the original question was about a routine slip and fall and specifically stated that the gun was under control. Your imaginations about terrible things happening later are not germane to the conversation. In general, if a shooter slips and falls and is not doing anything unsafe, we don't stop him. In general, if we believe a shooter is unable to safely continue, *whether or not there was a fall involved* we stop that shooter. I knew we could find common ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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