Were my instincts right or wrong?

[rowdyb]

At the NW AR match this weekend, stage 10 I did something on autopilot and I'm not sure if it was right or not, as I did it based off an understanding of the rules rather than just match savvy.

Standards stage,Limited scoring, 4 strings from 3 different distances. String one goes ok. Go to string two, an el pres variant. My gun is loaded to six (i'm shooting ssp). On the beep, I turn and shoot two on the appropriate middle/closer target. Transition to T3, equal in distance and priority to T2. Hammer falls, nothing happens. Hammer it two more times DA and then tap, rack, bang onto the correct target. Giving it just one shot and going to T2 and shooting two on it and going to slide lock after shooting at each target.

On reload I shoot two into T1 and then two as required into T3,2.

After my reload I obviously had the rounds to make up the hit on the target from the high primer round. But I didn't thinking I'd somehow incur a procedural.

I was scored a miss obviously. Should I also have gotten a PE for not shooting the required 12 rounds? Could I have fired the "make up" shot after the reload? Or would that have been wrong as I would have fired the string 5/7 shots rather than 6/6?

What say you?

[45 Raven]

Don't know if it is right or wrong, but I am certain if that had happened at the club I shoot IDPA at, you would have been given a PE for not shooting the required 12 rounds. And I am fairly certain that if you had fired the makeup shot after the reload, you would have been given two PE's for firing a 5-7 string instead of a 6-6 string (didn't fire the specified number of shots on EITHER string). As I said, not certain that is correct, but that is the way I believe it would be scored on my home IDPA range.

[rowdyb]

I'm looking at the rule book but my comprehension skills still must be down, as I too can't answer my question. And am kind of bummed I'm going off feelings rather than rules.

[v1911]

During the stage description, they should have announced where/when makeup shots can be made. You can't give a PE for not firing enough rounds and not allow for makeups due to malfunctions. If makeup shots aren't permitted then no PE can be issued, just the points down. Just as there are no FTNs issued on limited stages.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I'm looking at the rule book but can't answer my question.

That's too complex a sport, if you have to make split

second decisions on matters that require a lawyer

to answer ....

That's why I prefer USPSA ... Shoot 'em as you see 'em.

[rowdyb]

first year and a half i shot only idpa, two rule book versions ago. past year and a half i've shot mostly uspsa. so my mind/actions often defer to "better safe than sorry" in the moment as i'm not 100% current in my idpa shooting. especially to make a decision in 0.30 of a second.

[rowdyb]

so you say i could have shot the make up shot with no penalty, due to the fact it was from a malf?

[v1911]

Yes.

Every limited stage I've shot with downloaded mags has had an opportunity to make up shots, even if with later mag. If the stage descriptions stated no make up shots then PEs cannot be assessed.

[racknrider]

1 PE for not following COF and 1 miss. You were limited to 12 shots, malfunctions do not change that.

As to engagement sequence, I think 5/7 would be a PE for not following COF which required 6/6. I think you could have gotten away with 2,2,1 reload reengage 1 then fire 2,2,2.

In my useless opinion the correct sequence would be 2,2,1 reload 1, reload 2,2,2.

[Marshal82]

According to the rules: You should have been issued a PE for not shooting the required number of rounds at the target and the points for the miss.

On a limited stage if you have a malfunction you tap/rack/reload as needed to fire that make up shot as long as you do not shoot more than the prescribed rounds needed.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Marshal82

[WaJim]

1 PE for not following COF and 1 miss. You were limited to 12 shots, malfunctions do not change that.

As to engagement sequence, I think 5/7 would be a PE for not following COF which required 6/6. I think you could have gotten away with 2,2,1 reload reengage 1 then fire 2,2,2.

In my useless opinion the correct sequence would be 2,2,1 reload 1, reload 2,2,2.

Would he not then get a procedural for the slide not locking back between the two strings?

IIRC an El Pres is slidelock reload.

[okorpheus]

1 PE for not following COF and 1 miss. You were limited to 12 shots, malfunctions do not change that.

As to engagement sequence, I think 5/7 would be a PE for not following COF which required 6/6. I think you could have gotten away with 2,2,1 reload reengage 1 then fire 2,2,2.

In my useless opinion the correct sequence would be 2,2,1 reload 1, reload 2,2,2.

Would he not then get a procedural for the slide not locking back between the two strings?

IIRC an El Pres is slidelock reload.

I think this would be a time common sense would apply and that would not be an additional penalty. Already down the time dealing with the malfunction, and the extra time needed to store the mag at the required reload.

[Marshal82]

SO the malfunction would remove the not shooting in order required penalty. However you would still get a PE for not firing the required number of rounds at that target.

[SCTaylor]

Sorry OP I can't offer any advice. But HOLY CRAP this is confusing. No wonder I shoot the potato head rated 3 gun and USPSA matches, I'd never remember the rules of IDPA. Haha.

[IronArcher]

Sorry OP I can't offer any advice. But HOLY CRAP this is confusing. No wonder I shoot the potato head rated 3 gun and USPSA matches, I'd never remember the rules of IDPA. Haha.

It certainly does seem like the rules in IDPA are designed to ding you for everything, even stuff that shouldn't matter.....so lets add to those penalties!!! (DOH!)

[Jim Watson]

A lot of details will be swept under the rug in the heat of a malfunction clearance.

But if you don't fire the required minimum number of shots, that is a PE.

[GmanCdp]

cant paste for some reason.. answered in the rules section under 4.3

Edited May 31, 2016 by GmanCdp

[rowdyb]

thank you

[9x45]

Limited scoring means 12 rounds only. Less than 12 rounds is not a procedural, and should only be scored as misses, same as if you gun quit during the stage, scored as fired. Not following stage description is a procedural, but how where you allowed to only load 6 rounds for SSP? It should have been loaded to 10+1 at the start, unless so stated in the stage brief.

[Marshal82]

Limited scoring means 12 rounds only. Less than 12 rounds is not a procedural, and should only be scored as misses, same as if you gun quit during the stage, scored as fired. Not following stage description is a procedural, but how where you allowed to only load 6 rounds for SSP? It should have been loaded to 10+1 at the start, unless so stated in the stage brief.

Indeed shooting less than the required number of rounds is a PE per the rulebook.

[MemphisMechanic]

The short answer is that your malfunction simply changes the stage into 5 rounds from your fist magazine, and 7 from the second magazine. It also relocates your reload.

Let's say that the gun died on the fourth shot. Fastest legal procedure is:

Two rounds into T1.

One round into T2... then the gun goes click on your follow-up.

Rack the round out of the gun and fire your second shot on T2.

Fire one round into T3. Slide lock.

Perform your reload and fire the missing round into T3.

Now, you simply fire two rounds into each target to complete the second pass, to finish the stage.

Yes, that means you can fire three rounds boomboomboom into T3 after the load,transition back to T2 for two, and T1 for two. This is entirely legal and it's the only logical way to handle putting four holes into each target with limited capacity AND a FTF malfunction.

This is the correct, legal, and fastest way to complete such a stage.

I know this because I SO'd a standards stage very, very similar to this at a major match a couple of years back. I was walked through exactly what type of recovery is and is not legal after a malfunction at length, because our AC and the MD were both very competent and very much on the ball over such things, and wanted myself and the other SO to be able to answer questions and treat shooters fairly.

It's also exactly how I'd previously handled this type of situation as a shooter at previous majors without any SO ever saying anything other than some variation of "well, that sucks, but you sure recovered quickly."

Edited July 18, 2016 by MemphisMechanic