Why is this necessary?

[Nimitz]

Ok, despite what this may sound like I'm not trolling ... I honestly don't understand why L10 still exists? I'm sure I'm missing something obvious so feel free to enlighten me ....but here's why ...

In the limited capacity states isn't every division 10 rd? Open 10, Limited 10, Production 10? There are no exceptions to the law so Limited BY DEFINITION is Limited 10, right? You don't need to create the division in the first place ...

I've heard the original reason for the division was in response to the mag restriction laws but once that was gone why is the division still around? I've heard the statement from a very promenant USPSA individual that "L10 was created to solve a problem that no longer exists"

I've also 'heard' that the other reason is to be fair to the limited capacity state shooters when they attend a major since they now have a division where everyone from others states has to only have 10 rds like them ...

Are we really keeping this division around just for a couple of major matches? Also, even if true is there really a disadvantage? The only difference between L10 & Limited is mag capacity which translates into reload strategy for a stage, right? Well, since stages are always brand new for a match and have never been seen before, all shooters must come up with a reload strategy for the stage so how much of a disadvantage is there?

I just don't get this division?

[PatJones]

I think a large number of the capacity states have grandfathered high cap mags. I know that's the case in Colorado.

[warpspeed]

I think a large number of the capacity states have grandfathered high cap mags. I know that's the case in Colorado.

And the case in California. The state with the most USPSA members. By far.

[L3324temp]

Why does keeping L10 bother you?

[Hi-Power Jack]

I agree, but different calibers (minor vs major).

But, I still think we just need mag capacity

(6 - 10) and 10+ (Just two categories).

[RJH]

Nimitz, it seems as you are classified in all of 1 division (surprisingly not open from your avatar) so why should anyone care what divisions you want or don't want may be the better question?

[Nik Habicht]

Nimitz,

from my perspective when dealing with it as a match director:

• NJ limits mag capacity to 15 (Maryland = 20 I think) so at my matches Limited and Open would have been 15+1
• Where do I put the guy who shows up with a Sig 220, Beretta 96, Sig 229 in .40/.357 Sig, Browning Hi-Power, S&W four digit series .40 or .45? Keep in mind these guys are new and not reloading -- so they're shooting factory loads. Production -- that works as long as their guns are unmodified or lightly modified, but the ammo puts 'em at a disadvantage. Can't put them in Limited because with 10-12 round capacity they'd be short rounds. And oddly some of these folks would shoot for years without either buying a more suitable gun or starting to roll their own ammo. Add in that they're members of the host facility -- and we sometimes need their support when the BOD wants to run us off the range, or something similar -- and I needed L10 in my pocket. also consider that while they don't design stages, they show up early to help build; stay late to put it away, and generally bust their hump to keep the match moving for the other competitors -- even the ones who tease them for "hiding" in L10.
• Where do I put the guys who have been shooting SS1911s with 10 round mags (in .45 ACP naturally) and who don't want anything to do with this silly SS division and its limited round count, and restrictions on holster and mag pouch positions?

My take is that options are good to have if you're actually running a match and need to contend with some of these issues. And honestly I don't see what it costs us to have the division. SS wasn't popular at all -- if it had gotten killed off at the end of the provisional period maybe two people would have missed it. Having it and offering it didn't affect me much either -- 1 or 2 people would shoot it at every match, as compared with 8-12 folks competing in L10. Those couple of SS shooters were worth a couple of match fees, and its always nice to see likeminded folks having a good time. Losing L10 would have cost me match participation, goodwill from club members, and potentially work on match day.

One of the reasons L10 is still around is that I used to express that opinion to my area director every couple of years when someone would float the notion......

...and I may have posted variations on this theme here occasionally....

[UncleTK]

Limited 10

Was designed for 1911 45 ACP with the extended 10 round mag.

[NickBlasta]

Nimitz,

from my perspective when dealing with it as a match director:

• Where do I put the guy who shows up with a Sig 220, Beretta 96, Sig 229 in .40/.357 Sig, Browning Hi-Power, S&W four digit series .40 or .45? Keep in mind these guys are new and not reloading -- so they're shooting factory loads. Production -- that works as long as their guns are unmodified or lightly modified, but the ammo puts 'em at a disadvantage. Can't put them in Limited because with 10-12 round capacity they'd be short rounds. And oddly some of these folks would shoot for years without either buying a more suitable gun or starting to roll their own ammo. Add in that they're members of the host facility -- and we sometimes need their support when the BOD wants to run us off the range, or something similar -- and I needed L10 in my pocket. also consider that while they don't design stages, they show up early to help build; stay late to put it away, and generally bust their hump to keep the match moving for the other competitors -- even the ones who tease them for "hiding" in L10.
• Where do I put the guys who have been shooting SS1911s with 10 round mags (in .45 ACP naturally) and who don't want anything to do with this silly SS division and its limited round count, and restrictions on holster and mag pouch positions?

I would tend to say that it doesn't matter where you put them. If they're a new shooter with a gun that doesn't really fit the game, it doesn't matter what division they shoot, they're not going to be competitive not because of their gun, but because of their level of skill. They clearly don't stay in L10 when they come up in the sport, because L10 is not represented well at any match. They shoot their Sig, or whatever, and if they like the game they buy a gun that works in whatever div.

How crappy for a new shooter, though. Hey man, welcome, we have this division just for your gun! It's called L10! Oh hey, match is over, you won L10 because you weren't even competing against anyone else. Great job.

Might as well push them into the pool and have them shoot Limited so they can actually get a taste of competing and see where they rank.

Edited January 23, 2016 by NickBlasta

[Sarge]

I think a large number of the capacity states have grandfathered high cap mags. I know that's the case in Colorado.

And the case in California. The state with the most USPSA members. By far.

But if the law restricts everybody else that's where the uspsa mag restriction rule comes into play correct? If Colorado has a state match Uspsa steps in and limits all competitors to 15 right?

[Nik Habicht]

I think a large number of the capacity states have grandfathered high cap mags. I know that's the case in Colorado.

And the case in California. The state with the most USPSA members. By far.

But if the law restricts everybody else that's where the uspsa mag restriction rule comes into play correct? If Colorado has a state match Uspsa steps in and limits all competitors to 15 right?

That's not my understanding of how it works.....

[Sarge]

I think a large number of the capacity states have grandfathered high cap mags. I know that's the case in Colorado.

And the case in California. The state with the most USPSA members. By far.

But if the law restricts everybody else that's where the uspsa mag restriction rule comes into play correct? If Colorado has a state match Uspsa steps in and limits all competitors to 15 right?

That's not my understanding of how it works.....

Then how does it work? Guys who are grandfathered get to top mags off and everybody else gets cut off at 15? How is that equitable?

[Nik Habicht]

Nimitz,

from my perspective when dealing with it as a match director:

• Where do I put the guy who shows up with a Sig 220, Beretta 96, Sig 229 in .40/.357 Sig, Browning Hi-Power, S&W four digit series .40 or .45? Keep in mind these guys are new and not reloading -- so they're shooting factory loads. Production -- that works as long as their guns are unmodified or lightly modified, but the ammo puts 'em at a disadvantage. Can't put them in Limited because with 10-12 round capacity they'd be short rounds. And oddly some of these folks would shoot for years without either buying a more suitable gun or starting to roll their own ammo. Add in that they're members of the host facility -- and we sometimes need their support when the BOD wants to run us off the range, or something similar -- and I needed L10 in my pocket. also consider that while they don't design stages, they show up early to help build; stay late to put it away, and generally bust their hump to keep the match moving for the other competitors -- even the ones who tease them for "hiding" in L10.
• Where do I put the guys who have been shooting SS1911s with 10 round mags (in .45 ACP naturally) and who don't want anything to do with this silly SS division and its limited round count, and restrictions on holster and mag pouch positions?

I would tend to say that it doesn't matter where you put them. If they're a new shooter with a gun that doesn't really fit the game, it doesn't matter what division they shoot, they're not going to be competitive not because of their gun, but because of their level of skill. They clearly don't stay in L10 when they come up in the sport, because L10 is not represented well at any match. They shoot their Sig, or whatever, and if they like the game they buy a gun that works in whatever div.

How crappy for a new shooter, though. Hey man, welcome, we have this division just for your gun! It's called L10! Oh hey, match is over, you won L10 because you weren't even competing against anyone else. Great job.

Might as well push them into the pool and have them shoot Limited so they can actually get a taste of competing and see where they rank.

You missed the point. They show up new, with the gun they have, and in a lot of cases they continue to shoot that gun with factory ammo. Wasn't unusual for us to have 10-12 folks shooting the division.....

So no, they don't leave L10 behind. In a lot of cases L10, proves to be their favorite division. I get that's a regional thing. But then if we were going off making USPSA do what works for us at this match, we could get by with Production, Limited, L10, and if we have to Open. In the Mid-Atlantic Section, in 2012 L10 was more popular than Open. I'll have to dig to see if I can turn up the numbers for 2013 and 2014. SS and Revolver go away immediately -- we don't need them.

On the other hand, I know of other clubs in the section where SS has crept up in popularity over the years.

Still no one has explained to me how keeping any division around really hurts the sport.

[GrumpyOne]

Nimitz,

from my perspective when dealing with it as a match director:

• Where do I put the guy who shows up with a Sig 220, Beretta 96, Sig 229 in .40/.357 Sig, Browning Hi-Power, S&W four digit series .40 or .45? Keep in mind these guys are new and not reloading -- so they're shooting factory loads. Production -- that works as long as their guns are unmodified or lightly modified, but the ammo puts 'em at a disadvantage. Can't put them in Limited because with 10-12 round capacity they'd be short rounds. And oddly some of these folks would shoot for years without either buying a more suitable gun or starting to roll their own ammo. Add in that they're members of the host facility -- and we sometimes need their support when the BOD wants to run us off the range, or something similar -- and I needed L10 in my pocket. also consider that while they don't design stages, they show up early to help build; stay late to put it away, and generally bust their hump to keep the match moving for the other competitors -- even the ones who tease them for "hiding" in L10.
• Where do I put the guys who have been shooting SS1911s with 10 round mags (in .45 ACP naturally) and who don't want anything to do with this silly SS division and its limited round count, and restrictions on holster and mag pouch positions?

I would tend to say that it doesn't matter where you put them. If they're a new shooter with a gun that doesn't really fit the game, it doesn't matter what division they shoot, they're not going to be competitive not because of their gun, but because of their level of skill. They clearly don't stay in L10 when they come up in the sport, because L10 is not represented well at any match. They shoot their Sig, or whatever, and if they like the game they buy a gun that works in whatever div.

How crappy for a new shooter, though. Hey man, welcome, we have this division just for your gun! It's called L10! Oh hey, match is over, you won L10 because you weren't even competing against anyone else. Great job.

Might as well push them into the pool and have them shoot Limited so they can actually get a taste of competing and see where they rank.

You missed the point. They show up new, with the gun they have, and in a lot of cases they continue to shoot that gun with factory ammo. Wasn't unusual for us to have 10-12 folks shooting the division.....

So no, they don't leave L10 behind. In a lot of cases L10, proves to be their favorite division. I get that's a regional thing. But then if we were going off making USPSA do what works for us at this match, we could get by with Production, Limited, L10, and if we have to Open. In the Mid-Atlantic Section, in 2012 L10 was more popular than Open. I'll have to dig to see if I can turn up the numbers for 2013 and 2014. SS and Revolver go away immediately -- we don't need them.

On the other hand, I know of other clubs in the section where SS has crept up in popularity over the years.

Still no one has explained to me how keeping any division around really hurts the sport.

Or explained how adding a division hurts the sport in the same way.

[Nik Habicht]

I think a large number of the capacity states have grandfathered high cap mags. I know that's the case in Colorado.

And the case in California. The state with the most USPSA members. By far.

But if the law restricts everybody else that's where the uspsa mag restriction rule comes into play correct? If Colorado has a state match Uspsa steps in and limits all competitors to 15 right?

That's not my understanding of how it works.....

Then how does it work? Guys who are grandfathered get to top mags off and everybody else gets cut off at 15? How is that equitable?

I never said it was equitable -- nor is USPSA enforcing anything. So, if you're planning on traveling to Colorado to shoot a major and you don't own grandfathered mags, may I recommend that you shoot one of the capacity limited divisions such as Production, SS, L10, Revolver, or wait for it -- Carry Optics! Of course you could shoot open with 15 round mags -- but that would be your choice.

If on the other hand there were to be a major match in New Jersey, and you worked out the logistics to attend, then because there's no grandfathering in NJ, everyone would be capped at 15 rounds in Open and Limited.

[Sarge]

I think a large number of the capacity states have grandfathered high cap mags. I know that's the case in Colorado.

And the case in California. The state with the most USPSA members. By far.

But if the law restricts everybody else that's where the uspsa mag restriction rule comes into play correct? If Colorado has a state match Uspsa steps in and limits all competitors to 15 right?

That's not my understanding of how it works.....

Then how does it work? Guys who are grandfathered get to top mags off and everybody else gets cut off at 15? How is that equitable?

I never said it was equitable -- nor is USPSA enforcing anything. So, if you're planning on traveling to Colorado to shoot a major and you don't own grandfathered mags, may I recommend that you shoot one of the capacity limited divisions such as Production, SS, L10, Revolver, or wait for it -- Carry Optics! Of course you could shoot open with 15 round mags -- but that would be your choice.

If on the other hand there were to be a major match in New Jersey, and you worked out the logistics to attend, then because there's no grandfathering in NJ, everyone would be capped at 15 rounds in Open and Limited.

then the 3.3.1 is a waste of time and needs dropped from the rules

[Reshoot]

Nimitz, it seems as you are classified in all of 1 division (surprisingly not open from your avatar) so why should anyone care what divisions you want or don't want may be the better question?

What he said.

I only shoot one division now, and the other divisions have no effect on me . . . do not interfere with me what so ever. How, exactly, does L-10 affect you in a negative way?

[Nimitz]

this is why the Internet is so annoying ...

please show me in my OP where I said "it affects me in a negative way", or that I "don't want" a particular division? Or the implication of your posts that I don't like this division? Or what being classified in ANY division has to do with the discussion?

What I said was "I just don't get this division" .... and I didn't at the time I wrote this

Nick's explanation certainly helps but I'll have to think through it some more .... and I agree that it's definitely a regional thing since around here we don't seem to suffer from the issues he describes. My local experience is that new shooters who show up with whatever they have don't care, don't know & don't understand divisions and just want to shoot so wherever they are put by the MD is fine by them. Most times they don't even know what "major vs minor' means. And like someone said, if they get more serious they usually end up with a gun that fits a specific division and conforms to the rules. I can honestly say that in the 4 years I've been shooting USPSA I don't remember ever seeing a competitor listed in the L10 division at any level 1 match I've shot. There have been the odd SS or revo shooter which I can count on one hand in total but no L10 ...

Edited January 23, 2016 by Nimitz

[RJH]

The reason the internet is so annoying is that we have people base their opinions on their region, experiences, and "knowledge" without shooting all across the country and seeing what is popular at different clubs in different areas. They want everyone else to agree with them and realize that their infinite wisdom (especially from their vast experience of shooting across all of one division) is best for everyone else. Where I shoot, and I am not in a limited capacity state, l10 for years has had more shooters than production, ss, and revolver. The reason for l10 is some people like to shoot it. They like major powerfactor, a quality trigger, 1911s (or not), like the versatility of 10 rounds over 8, and can put a competitive rig together for less money than in other divisions. Or they have a gun that happens to fit neatly into l10 and like the gun and don't care to shoot something else. Another question is why do you want to force everyone into your ideas, Socialism much?

[PatJones]

So, if you're planning on traveling to Colorado to shoot a major and you don't own grandfathered mags...

In the case of Colorado, the law is written to ban transfer or manufacture of magazines larger than 15 rounds. You are fully compliant with the law if you owned the magazines prior to the law going into effect, even if you live out of state and later move or visit here.

[teros135]

Nimitz, it seems as you are classified in all of 1 division (surprisingly not open from your avatar) so why should anyone care what divisions you want or don't want may be the better question?

That wasn't helpful. Nimitz asked a question, and not an unreasonable one if we look at all the discussion that happens around the less-attended Divisions (Revo, L10, even SS) and whether one (like L10) should be "eliminated". Give the man a break, he's just said out loud what I suspect a number of us have been wondering.

And for me, I don't know the genesis of L10, so discussions like these are helpful.

[OPENB]

I thought the same thing. I re read his post & didn't see where he tried to force anyone do anything. Lighten up Francis, it's just a discussion.

[RJH]

Why does it matter why any one other than you shoot? Every other week someone is questioning why we have l10, it has been discussed at length, I assume since he can type, and has 4000+ post Nimitz, can read so the only realistic reason for this thread is to want to bash on a division or a well disguised troll ( since the thread was started with "this is not a troll"). So in my second post a related again why l10 is a good division as many others have said before, just incase it wasn't a troll, but ended with a smart a**comment because I figure it is.

PS if feelings got hurt, remember it is only someone on the internet.

Edited January 23, 2016 by RJH

[mont1120]

Well, I am one of the dreaded L10 shooters, and there are a lot of reasons L10 shooters exist, namely;

1. You can shoot any pistol besides a revolver, (you could but that would be L8), whether you like Glocks, Sigs, 1911, 2011, XDM, CZ, or whatever floats your boats, load it to 10 and hammer away.

2. The holster can be a almost any type, and can be worn with a drop and offset, and in any USPSA approved position, hip placement does not matter.

3. Mag pouches can hold multiple mags, and be placed anywhere you want on the belt. Not so in SS or Production (I think).

4. I really enjoy making multple mag changes during a stage. I consider it fun, just as Limited shooters prefer as few changes as possible. Good for them.

5. Production does not allow the 2011/1911 platform, yet it is really the same as an L10 division.

6. SS does not allow 2011 platform based firearms.

Now, the additional reasons I pick this division are of the allowable placement of the holster and mags, I have torn up shoulders, and a hefty spare tire configuration that the L10 division lets me compete easily in. I find it incredibly hard to reach behind my back for the SS division to grab mags. I don't really like Production guns, so I wont compete in that. With my slow speed, I am not in the least competitive in Limited or Open, so I really do not understand the big push back on L10. We don't win prizes very often since there are not that many shooters, so the valuable prizes are safe.

I've been to matches where I won, and we all had a good laugh since there were all of 3 of us, but it was all in good fun. I didn't even qualify for a certificate, but I really enjoyed it anyway. Limitation to 10 rounds is becoming mandatory in some states, so it might become Open 10, Production, revolver, and L10. I hear all the time, it won't happen in my state, well, watch to see who wins the next election, and this tell me it cannot happen. The SS, L10, and revolver shooters are happy where they are, I really don't understand why it bothers other shooters so much. I don't care what you shoot, so why care what I shoot?

[Strick]

I think the hang up on having divisions like L10 and rev lingering around with little to no participation is that it makes it an even more complicated explanation if new divisions were added. As evidenced here and on a couple other threads lately the desire for a division like this is usually......"because I don't want to shoot my gun the is legal for another division in that division".

The chuckle I get out of L10 and "because the law in our state" argument is that if you look at majors in those states there is no one shooting L10. If that were the real reason for the division then where are those shooters? I just don't get it.