Carry optics

[zhunter]

As for no "new shooters", my wife ONLY started shooting when she saw me dry firing with a dot on my production gun. NO way she would shoot iron sights. She joined USPSA, her first "Major" was the Monster Match. I shoot a lot more than she does, and sadly I am not classified. It seems that very few matches we shoot offer classifiers.

I might not be classified, but I'm having a lot of fun.

Edited January 23, 2016 by zhunter

[bret]

So many people talking about the low number of people shooting CO in matches. It's a new division. It won't happen overnight. I'm confident as time progresses the numbers will improve significantly. As more people start to shoot CO, more people on the fence will gravitate to it.

Our monthly match that filled up last month, 1 CO shooter, I think we had 84 shooters.

Our monthly match tomorrow that will fill up, has 3 CO shooters out if 78.

I shoot 2 club matches a week, plus on the weekends, not many people shooting it at club level, even less at bigger matches.

I worked a GSSF match, I think only one guy had an optic.

GSSF is not USPSA but it is where a lot of new shooters try a match.

If USPSA wanted to do outreach,to bring more shooters in, they could run a similar type of match, small COF, no moving and allow some freedom in how it's shot, all divisions in USPSA could be shot and no Range Nazi's being here's to run off shooters, safety obviously is still number 1.

[bret]

As for no "new shooters", my wife ONLY started shooting when she saw me dry firing with a dot on my production gun. NO way she would shoot iron sights. She joined USPSA, her first "Major" was the Monster Match. I shoot a lot more than she does, and sadly I am not classified. It seems that very few matches we shoot offer classifiers.

I might not be classified, but I'm having a lot of fun.

Roads End has an all classifier match at Universal Shooting Academy I think next Sunday, the Wyoming Antelope Club has one next Saturday.

Either one would be a good match to get classified in.

Glad you got your wife into the sport, I recall seeing her on Stage 4, she did good, was safe.

[zhunter]

As for no "new shooters", my wife ONLY started shooting when she saw me dry firing with a dot on my production gun. NO way she would shoot iron sights. She joined USPSA, her first "Major" was the Monster Match. I shoot a lot more than she does, and sadly I am not classified. It seems that very few matches we shoot offer classifiers.

I might not be classified, but I'm having a lot of fun.

Roads End has an all classifier match at Universal Shooting Academy I think next Sunday, the Wyoming Antelope Club has one next Saturday.

Either one would be a good match to get classified in.

Glad you got your wife into the sport, I recall seeing her on Stage 4, she did good, was safe.

Thanks, she is having fun, she likes SC a lot too.

I know about those matches, but I am working in the Middle East for 3 weeks, I only get home Feb. 8th

Edited January 23, 2016 by zhunter

[busdriver02]

I have not seen one new shooter brought in by carry optics

Not really surprising considering there were people shooting already that didn't know it was a thing. Then there's the non-existent promotion of the sport at local gun stores. The only thing most folks know about USPSA (IPSC really) is what they see on youtube, national level shooters going really fast. It's intimidating, and not representative of a local match at all. I had been shooting casually for years before I went to my first match, afterwards I thought I should have have done this years ago.

Just cranking out new division isn't going to bring in new shooters, but being able to shoot a gun you like (for whatever reason) is a step. For me the final push was buying the nice 1911 I had always wanted and a reloading press. But I had everything I really needed long before. The organization needs to reach out to get that new shooter to their first match. If they're not hooked after that it, was never going to happen.

[Chris iliff]

My post was kinda long, but let me add.....

The discussion about Production Optics for USPSA proceeds IDPA STARTING A SIMILAR DIVISION.

The discussion about Production Optics for USPSA proceeds any manufacturer offering out of the box guns with optics.

Again, it evident that some people have a deeply held bias toward an optic mounted production type carry firearm shooting minor and limited to 10 rounds.

Not me.

[bret]

I don't care about it. I think the weight limit should go away, keep the rIles basically the same as production with an optic.

If you start changing it too much, just call it open with no compensator.

[Sarge]

so you know everyone across the country who has a CCW or have conducted a scientific poll of a representative sample of people who have CCWs and therefore your information should be taken as a fact?

Small sample sizes of random locations cannot be used as facts to support a certain side of an argument ....

If you look at the 2-day event known as the SS Nationals in isolation you would conclude that SS is a very popular division is USPSA. Anyone want to try and argue that's really the case .... ?

The reason nationals look well attended is because a slew of guys shooting other divisions on a regular basis pull out the 1911 they bought years ago before they realized it has limited potential in 32 round field courses. They shoot it for a few months leading up to nationals , cuss at it the whole time because they miss their lim/open gun, go shoot nationals, bring it home and clean it and bury it in the closet until next year.

What would the numbers look like if they only allowed SS shooters who only shoot SS? I'm sure there would be quite a few but nothing like we see now. But at least they use SS guns to over inflate the numbers.

[JGus]

Thursday night we have a one stage indoor match at a small local indoor range (because there is snow on the ground and it's too damn cold this time of year to shoot outdoors). But, we had about 40 shooters, almost all are USPSA members. When it was my turn to shoot (i shot CO for the first time ever) i couldn't believe how many people were asking "what is Carry Optics?" I bet half the shooters, USPSA members, had never heard of CO. So just knowledge that the division exists is still very low. And by the way, other than sighting in my red dot the day before, it was the first time i'd ever shot a red dot (Burris FastFire 3) and damn it was fun!

Edited January 23, 2016 by JGus

[xpd54]

Does anyone know anybody that carries a concealed pistol with an optic on it. "Wait wait hold on a minute let me get the cover off this thing"

Yes. 229/RMR on duty. P07/RMR off duty.

[pskys2]

I've tried it and personally don't care a great deal for a Glock with an Optic.

IPSC has led to this by testing what the best platform is to get shots on target as fast and accurately as possible. But Open is a large overall platform for that test. IPSC Modified tried to refine that, and I always thought it was a great idea it just never gained any traction.

One of the reasons that Production came to be is the by product of the argument that it is safer to carry a DA type trigger for self defense than a SA, the validity of those arguments are not my point just that they were argued. That argument/concern is one reason why the Safe Action/DA to SA trigger systems are so popular. But competition has shown a slight advantage to the SA only platform especially for the median competitor. Since those type of actions weren't competitive against Limited guns it led to Production Division as a place where factory pistols with little modifications could compete equally among their own type.

Now we have durable Optics being combined with over the counter DA or Safe Action Pistols. It is not a step child of Open it is the child of Production.

So the idea of a Division that allowed, does not have to be a separate Division either, a self defense oriented handgun with Optics is a valid idea. How USPSA addresses that is the question. I liked the idea of Modified, allowing anything that fit in a box, within a specific weight to be allowed. But that leads to real expensive firearms. Making it less costly by eliminating the comp issue and using factory pistols with optics added, but not requiring them to be factory type, will lead to more thorough vetting of the platform.

The other issue/question may also be whether it would be a better platform than an iron sighted production pistol. How to test that theory?

[lcs]

I've posted this elsewhere......or similar......

CO actually started life as Production Optics........many threads and back and forth on this in different forums. Do a search.

A simple division using Production rules, but also a slide mounted optic.

I have been a proponent of "Production Optics/Carry Optics" from the beginning. Full disclosure....I am almost exclusively an Open shooter, Production is the furthest thing away that I'd even consider shooting.

I supported it because I could see that the concealed carry crowd was leaning towards optics. It was starting to be fairly common amongst them and the "new" set up.

I WANT USPSA TO BE ON THE CUTTING EDGE OF PISTOLCRAFT AND AT THE FOREFRONT OF DEVELOPMENT OF NEW TECHNIQUE AND GEAR. WE GET THIS AND HAVE ALWAYS DONE THIS BY PUSHING THE ENVELOPE

SO,.... What was discovered was........the very words PRODUCTION OPTICS rendered the "HATE THE IDEA CROWD" complete drooling troglodytes.. Those words were so powerful you could see the IQ ticker plummeting as they furiously typed and complained. While never once offering one idea why the division would hurt USPSA.

Anyway,...once this phenomenon was identified the name was changed to Carry Optics and more than half the naysayers disappeared..

I DONT KNOW IF IT WILL EVER TAKE OFF,... BUT I BACK THE DIVISION. I HOPE IT WORKS.

Upon reflection I now think naysayers can not stand the idea of getting beat by a minor gun with an optic. Admit it, most of us look at "overall" even though we know better. This new division shakes the status quo.

I have carried a gun concealed since 1987, I know a lot of people that carry a gun.

I don't know of anyone that carries one with an optic.

I have never heard anyone I know say they would even consider an optic.

Not to be a smartass,,,but may be your circle of friends is small. Our VP carries with optic(RMR). Until recently, there were not reliable optics that fit the need. A slide mount optic/laser is perfect for older folks.

[FinleysHobbies]

I look at CO as a jumping off point for someone to test drive open class without taking the jump into the open gun equipment. The other way to look at it we have limited and limited 10 so why not open and carry optics.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[xpd54]

Not to be a smartass,,,but may be your circle of friends is small. Our VP carries with optic(RMR). Until recently, there were not reliable optics that fit the need. A slide mount optic/laser is perfect for older folks.

I don't consider 42 old, but due to some recent eye issues RMR equipped guns are much easier for me to shoot well. Especially at distance. In my circle of good "shooter" friends (7 of us), 2 of us carry RMR equipped pistols.

[Nimitz]

One of the reasons this new division will likely succeed is that there are many different reasons people can have to shoot it vice current divisions, all of which are valid. As for those who kept reporting low turn out in isolated locations with no context, those numbers basically mean nothing. Just like if someone reported that at a match they attended there were 40 CO shooters out of 45 for the match .. That statistic too would mean basically nothing ...

Make it a permenant division, set the rules & hopefully make it more inclusive (read eliminate the weight limit) so it resembles the orginial idea )Production Optics), let it cook for a year or so and only then can you do any valid analysis of participation numbers ...numbers mean less than nothing at this point ...

[Onepocket]

Xpd45 what do you do when its raining out? What's on duty, are you currently working as a LEO?

[pskys2]

Actually fwiw I'd like to see Production just allow optics if it fit within all of the regular Production criteria. That would limit it to just a few factory guns. Then you would test the theory of optics being an advantage over iron in this platform. Or recognize it as a category of Production.

I don't have any big interest, except as to how it would benefit/hurt USPSA as a whole. It wouldn't have any affect on me either way, it wouldn't entice me to shoot Production any more than I already do which is on a limited basis. So I'm not thinking from a personal point.

[Nimitz]

The orginial proposal for Production Optics, which preceded all of this is really the way to go. Production rules except that you now allow a slide mounted optic ... Period. This doesn't have to be hard or complicated ....

[GrumpyOne]

The orginial proposal for Production Optics, which preceded all of this is really the way to go. Production rules except that you now allow a slide mounted optic ... Period. This doesn't have to be hard or complicated ....

Ah, but you forget Human nature....

[Nik Habicht]

I've posted this elsewhere......or similar......

CO actually started life as Production Optics........many threads and back and forth on this in different forums. Do a search.

A simple division using Production rules, but also a slide mounted optic.

I have been a proponent of "Production Optics/Carry Optics" from the beginning. Full disclosure....I am almost exclusively an Open shooter, Production is the furthest thing away that I'd even consider shooting.

I supported it because I could see that the concealed carry crowd was leaning towards optics. It was starting to be fairly common amongst them and the "new" set up.

I WANT USPSA TO BE ON THE CUTTING EDGE OF PISTOLCRAFT AND AT THE FOREFRONT OF DEVELOPMENT OF NEW TECHNIQUE AND GEAR. WE GET THIS AND HAVE ALWAYS DONE THIS BY PUSHING THE ENVELOPE

SO,.... What was discovered was........the very words PRODUCTION OPTICS rendered the "HATE THE IDEA CROWD" complete drooling troglodytes.. Those words were so powerful you could see the IQ ticker plummeting as they furiously typed and complained. While never once offering one idea why the division would hurt USPSA.

Anyway,...once this phenomenon was identified the name was changed to Carry Optics and more than half the naysayers disappeared..

I DONT KNOW IF IT WILL EVER TAKE OFF,... BUT I BACK THE DIVISION. I HOPE IT WORKS.

Upon reflection I now think naysayers can not stand the idea of getting beat by a minor gun with an optic. Admit it, most of us look at "overall" even though we know better. This new division shakes the status quo.

I have carried a gun concealed since 1987, I know a lot of people that carry a gun.

I don't know of anyone that carries one with an optic.

I have never heard anyone I know say they would even consider an optic.

I'm pretty sure lots of people carry guns with optics as USPSA defines the term -- since it includes not just optical sights but lasers and weapon mounted white lights.....

[GrumpyOne]

To be honest, I had no plans to shoot CO....but the thought has been nagging at me...to a point where I am just about ready to build a pistol for it...as it stands now, I would prefer them to actually leave the weight limit IN the rules, so that those who have already laid the ground work for this new division are not suddenly pushed to the wayside by those with steel guns.

[Nimitz]

So many people talking about the low number of people shooting CO in matches. It's a new division. It won't happen overnight. I'm confident as time progresses the numbers will improve significantly. As more people start to shoot CO, more people on the fence will gravitate to it.

Our monthly match that filled up last month, 1 CO shooter, I think we had 84 shooters.

Our monthly match tomorrow that will fill up, has 3 CO shooters out if 78.

I shoot 2 club matches a week, plus on the weekends, not many people shooting it at club level, even less at bigger matches.

I worked a GSSF match, I think only one guy had an optic.

GSSF is not USPSA but it is where a lot of new shooters try a match.

If USPSA wanted to do outreach,to bring more shooters in, they could run a similar type of match, small COF, no moving and allow some freedom in how it's shot, all divisions in USPSA could be shot and no Range Nazi's being here's to run off shooters, safety obviously is still number 1.

Just looked at the current registration for the match I run which is in 2 weeks ...

Currently out of 46 shooters registered only 2 are signed up in Limited ... Guess we better start talking about elminating that division based on participation ... . Oh, and there are only 5 open shooters so might as well include that divsion for elimination as well ...

[Nimitz]

To be honest, I had no plans to shoot CO....but the thought has been nagging at me...to a point where I am just about ready to build a pistol for it...as it stands now, I would prefer them to actually leave the weight limit IN the rules, so that those who have already laid the ground work for this new division are not suddenly pushed to the wayside by those with steel guns.

Why? Do you really believe that steel guns have a huge advantage over plastic guns ...?

[Nik Habicht]

So many people talking about the low number of people shooting CO in matches. It's a new division. It won't happen overnight. I'm confident as time progresses the numbers will improve significantly. As more people start to shoot CO, more people on the fence will gravitate to it.

Our monthly match that filled up last month, 1 CO shooter, I think we had 84 shooters.

Our monthly match tomorrow that will fill up, has 3 CO shooters out if 78.

I shoot 2 club matches a week, plus on the weekends, not many people shooting it at club level, even less at bigger matches.

I worked a GSSF match, I think only one guy had an optic.

GSSF is not USPSA but it is where a lot of new shooters try a match.

If USPSA wanted to do outreach,to bring more shooters in, they could run a similar type of match, small COF, no moving and allow some freedom in how it's shot, all divisions in USPSA could be shot and no Range Nazi's being here's to run off shooters, safety obviously is still number 1.

Just looked at the current registration for the match I run which is in 2 weeks ...

Currently out of 46 shooters registered only 2 are signed up in Limited ... Guess we better start talking about elminating that division based on participation ... . Oh, and there are only 5 open shooters so might as well include that divsion for elimination as well ...

Wow -- you mean all the Revolver and L10 shooters are hiding out at your match?

[GrumpyOne]

To be honest, I had no plans to shoot CO....but the thought has been nagging at me...to a point where I am just about ready to build a pistol for it...as it stands now, I would prefer them to actually leave the weight limit IN the rules, so that those who have already laid the ground work for this new division are not suddenly pushed to the wayside by those with steel guns.

Why? Do you really believe that steel guns have a huge advantage over plastic guns ...?

For the general masses, yes...for the almost professional shooter like Vogel or Stoeger, no. Taking the weight limit away would almost certainly tip the scales (literally) in favor of metal guns, for their perceived recoil dampening characteristics. While it may or may not be true, look at production as a whole now....yes, there are tons of plastic fantastics still being shot... but steel guns sre overtaking them.