Carry optics

[BritinUSA]

Production Optics is what it should be. Everybody has some pet change they seem to want. That is also true of the current rules for all divisions. It's a never ending cycle of I want a rule just for me..................................Production Optics with no changes except those required to allow for the optic

I agree completely… and that was the original proposal I sent back in 2014, but now its morphing into a modified-lite division with frame modifications and slide lightening, undercutting trigger guard etc. I suspect that they will allow external trigger mods next. Personally, I think they've ruined it already.

[sfinney]

I disagree. If one purpose of CARRY Optics is to attract new shooters to USPSA, why exclude the large contingent of people out there that have spent money tuning up their pistols, BEFORE they checked USPSA and new the rules existed? Pretty discouraging to new shooters to tell them - "oh, your ZEV Dragonfly/TTI/Latest Tacticool Milled Up Trend gun is cool and all, but in USPSA you have to shoot Open with it. Good luck. What? Oh, well, you could go buy a new gun.... and then do just 2 or 3 mods... but not this that or the other mod. Why? Because we decided."

Irrelevant stippling, or undercutting a trigger guard, slide lightening, or even visible trigger changes shouldn't rule out a CARRY gun. I'd even allow magwells if they fit the box or certain size restrictions. (I have had a magwell and undercut trigger guard on my carry G19 for 10 years+).

[BritinUSA]

First; it was NEVER intended to be a CARRY OPTICS division, that came from the BOD, and not from those of us pushing this division. We wanted Production Optics. When the weight restriction was lifted the name CARRY OPTICS no longer fit the description of the division anyway. What many of us wanted was a Production gun with a red-dot. A low cost alternative to Open, and another option for those with vision issues who could not afford the cost of a competitive Open division gun.

A restrictive rule-set did not prevent growth of Production Division, so why should it affect Production Optics?

If you allow every person to change the rules to suit their particular setup then we end up with a highly customized, expensive division.

I keep hearing about this 'large group of people' that have made all these updates to a production gun with an optic.

Where is the empirical data to back up this assertion ?

Edited April 7, 2016 by BritinUSA

[bigbob21]

Production Optics is what it should be. Everybody has some pet change they seem to want. That is also true of the current rules for all divisions. It's a never ending cycle of I want a rule just for me..................................Production Optics with no changes except those required to allow for the optic

I agree completely… and that was the original proposal I sent back in 2014, but now its morphing into a modified-lite division with frame modifications and slide lightening, undercutting trigger guard etc. I suspect that they will allow external trigger mods next. Personally, I think they've ruined it already.

They had to allow those minor modifications to competitors guns because some/most people with optics on their guns (non-open shooters) already have one or more of those modifications done to their guns...

If they created a division that was straight production w/ slidecut, you'd only get competitors who want to buy their way into a new division, rather than get people to use guns they might already own. So using this argument, you'd possibly draw people from other divisions to compete with a gun they might already own, while bringing in people who currently don't own a race gun but might own a gun with a dot on it... Not including those competitors who say their eyesight might not be so clear and could use a red dot to stay competitive. lol I'm turning 30 this year and could use some lasik.

For example... I do not refer to myself as a tactical guy. I just went out and bought an aftermarket slide for one of my glocks to play with a red dot for fun... Being aftermarket and not a stock slide with slide cut, it obviously has extra cocking serrations, etc... Production optics would mean my gun was illegal.

I see many people in the same boat, whether they went the aftermarket route or they added extra slide cuts/stippling/etc... When they sent out their slides/guns to be modified for red dots.

Edited April 7, 2016 by bigbob21

[b1gcountry]

The zev dragonfly had been around for years with cuts for red dots. Glock itself only got into the game this year with their g17 mos. Why exclude all the people who have had the zev on their guns for the past 3 years?

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[BritinUSA]

They had to allow those minor modifications to competitors guns because some/most people with optics on their guns (non-open shooters) already have one or more of those modifications done to their guns...

The same argument was made when Production division was created, I am not aware of ANY empirical evidence to suggest that this was accurate then, or now. Production was one of the fastest growing divisions in this sport.

[BritinUSA]

The zev dragonfly had been around for years with cuts for red dots. Glock itself only got into the game this year with their g17 mos. Why exclude all the people who have had the zev on their guns for the past 3 years?

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

How are those people excluded ? If they bought an aftermarket slide for their gun then why not just put the original slide back onto the gun?

If you sent of your original slide to be modified years before the creation of this provisional division then why should the division change to accommodate your decision 3 years ago?

If we apply your logic to every division in USPSA then there would only be one division, and that would be Open.

Edited April 7, 2016 by BritinUSA

[bikerburgess]

Why make rules that are hard to enforce and make no real competitive difference? if you think someone running a lone wolf slide on their G17 has a real advantage over you using a stock slide I suggest you try practicing.

[BritinUSA]

Why make rules that are hard to enforce and make no real competitive difference? if you think someone running a lone wolf slide on their G17 has a real advantage over you using a stock slide I suggest you try practicing.

Competitive difference is subjective, it is different from one person to another. Rules should be objective.

[Gooldylocks]

Why make rules that are hard to enforce and make no real competitive difference? if you think someone running a lone wolf slide on their G17 has a real advantage over you using a stock slide I suggest you try practicing.

Dingdingding!! And we have a winner!

[Gooldylocks]

Why make rules that are hard to enforce and make no real competitive difference? if you think someone running a lone wolf slide on their G17 has a real advantage over you using a stock slide I suggest you try practicing.

Competitive difference is subjective, it is different from one person to another. Rules should be objective.

The current production rules as they are already leave huge oversights with what are essentially unenforceable rules. I'm with Mike, the fewer divisions with impossible rules the better.

[thermobollocks]

Didn't we already go through this stuff in the nineties or so in deciding to have divisions at all?

[bikerburgess]

Why make rules that are hard to enforce and make no real competitive difference? if you think someone running a lone wolf slide on their G17 has a real advantage over you using a stock slide I suggest you try practicing.

Competitive difference is subjective, it is different from one person to another. Rules should be objective.

Rules should be Objective as well as Strictly and Equally enforced. If you have rules that are not enforced or worse yet not Equally enforced then you have a problem. While Production division is very popular its equipment rules have many issues I would prefer to fix rather than copy to another division.

I know for a fact that MANY guns with ILLEGAL modifications are allowed to compete at everything from local matches to National Championships, I don't believe that most of the shooters competing with these guns are trying to cheat, heck many don't even know they are.

Can you tell me what every legal CZ hammer looks like? I know there are several that are legal and I know at least one smith is installing his own manufactured hammer on guns built for production, so that would be illegal but how do we tell the difference? if we can't then we have a bad rule because it will not be Equally enforced. If you are working chrono do you look up the serial numbers on GLOCK frames to verify that the frame is for the correct caliber and slide length for the gun presented? if we are not enforcing a rule it is only a recommendation.

[b1gcountry]

The important rules are minor, major, mag limit, and sights.

Stipple, undercut, slide cuts, etc it doesn't matter.

Barrel, and trigger matter, but if you can have a cz accushadow, I don't see anyone getting gamier than that.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[BritinUSA]

I know for a fact that MANY guns with ILLEGAL modifications are allowed to compete at everything from local matches to National Championships, I don't believe that most of the shooters competing with these guns are trying to cheat, heck many don't even know they are.

Have you passed this information on to DNROI ?

[IronArcher]

I can see having most of the same rules as Production. Most people with an aftermarket trigger don't just throw away the old parts. Put the old trigger on (provided you didn't need to make a lot of modifications to fit the new one).

If you let everything go, it becomes open with slide mounted optics.

One rule I wish they would try, which for the vast majority would require no new gear, would be a 15 round mag limit.

Let's the .40 guys play along, and you don't leave 1/2 full mags on over the course.

I like reloads, but sometimes it just seems silly to be shooting "production" guns barely more than 1/2 full.

[b1gcountry]

I hated the 10 round limit, but I kinda like mag changes. It makes me feel all tactical

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[Racinready300ex]

I think we need CO and PO now.

[BrianKr]

I can see having most of the same rules as Production. Most people with an aftermarket trigger don't just throw away the old parts. Put the old trigger on (provided you didn't need to make a lot of modifications to fit the new one).

If you let everything go, it becomes open with slide mounted optics.

One rule I wish they would try, which for the vast majority would require no new gear, would be a 15 round mag limit.

Let's the .40 guys play along, and you don't leave 1/2 full mags on over the course.

I like reloads, but sometimes it just seems silly to be shooting "production" guns barely more than 1/2 full.

I probably didn't understand, but .40 can shoot in CO now. No matter the load, it's scored as minor. Heck, a .45 can shoot in CO, but again, it's scored as minor no matter the load. I think it would make sense to shoot a minor pf .40 load if one does that. I don't have a .40 but I'd be surprised if it can't be done. You don't need a 15 round mag limit to use .40 in CO, any more than I need a 17 round mag limit to shoot my 9mm. 10 rounds means that everyone plays if they wish to, and stage strategy accounts for something. One can't just blast away. No one is forcing anyone to shoot in CO; it's purely voluntary. I'd've liked to have been able to use my ported barrel, but the rules don't allow it. Big deal, I either bend and conform or I don't shoot in CO.

Clearly I'm not understanding.

The way I see it the rules force it be a thinking game where hits count. Sure time counts also, but a hit out of the A zone costs big time. It's geared more to draw in folks that for one reason or another may not be all that fast. I could be wrong, but that's the way I see it. Sounds like it's geared to old farts like me who may not move all that fast, have vision on the downhill slope, but have accuracy learned over the years, and want to use guile (thought) over the other attributes. Heck, even Minor makes sense since grip strength may also be failing. I have a new CO shooting friend going through that right now. I see it as a sort of old folks home for aging shooters. Yup, the young whippersnappers can come in and play too. :-)

[bikerburgess]

I know for a fact that MANY guns with ILLEGAL modifications are allowed to compete at everything from local matches to National Championships, I don't believe that most of the shooters competing with these guns are trying to cheat, heck many don't even know they are.

Have you passed this information on to DNROI ?

yes, I am at least one of the reasons we got the ruling on the plastic grip plugs and the pending? ruling on magazine releases

[IronArcher]

I can see having most of the same rules as Production. Most people with an aftermarket trigger don't just throw away the old parts. Put the old trigger on (provided you didn't need to make a lot of modifications to fit the new one).

If you let everything go, it becomes open with slide mounted optics.

One rule I wish they would try, which for the vast majority would require no new gear, would be a 15 round mag limit.

Let's the .40 guys play along, and you don't leave 1/2 full mags on over the course.

I like reloads, but sometimes it just seems silly to be shooting "production" guns barely more than 1/2 full.

I probably didn't understand, but .40 can shoot in CO now. No matter the load, it's scored as minor. Heck, a .45 can shoot in CO, but again, it's scored as minor no matter the load. I think it would make sense to shoot a minor pf .40 load if one does that. I don't have a .40 but I'd be surprised if it can't be done. You don't need a 15 round mag limit to use .40 in CO, any more than I need a 17 round mag limit to shoot my 9mm. 10 rounds means that everyone plays if they wish to, and stage strategy accounts for something. One can't just blast away. No one is forcing anyone to shoot in CO; it's purely voluntary. I'd've liked to have been able to use my ported barrel, but the rules don't allow it. Big deal, I either bend and conform or I don't shoot in CO.

Clearly I'm not understanding.

The point was, if we go to 15 round mags, it doesn't eliminate many guns from competitive competition... Where running "full" mags (17-18+1 or more) would impact a lot of guns (most .40s don't hold 18 rounds).

Something else to differentiate this class from production.

You still get in a few reloads, but you don't have quite as many (on a long course, the number in SS, prod, and L10 just starts getting ridiculous).

[b1gcountry]

15 rounds might not eliminate as many reloads as you think. Some matches have 8rd arrays in practically every position. I'm still reloading after an 8rd array. It will give more room for misses, but that is somewhat counter top the idea behind it.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[zhunter]

I have said and posted too many times to count, 15 rounds with current USPSA 8 round arrays is silly, IF you are going to go beyond 10 rounds 16 rounds is the magic number.

I like 10

[pmt]

I have said and posted too many times to count, 15 rounds with current USPSA 8 round arrays is silly, IF you are going to go beyond 10 rounds 16 rounds is the magic number.

I like 10

In other words....15 rounds isn't silly - the current trend of USPSA 8 round arrays is silly.

[zhunter]

I have said and posted too many times to count, 15 rounds with current USPSA 8 round arrays is silly, IF you are going to go beyond 10 rounds 16 rounds is the magic number.

I like 10

In other words....15 rounds isn't silly - the current trend of USPSA 8 round arrays is silly.

It can be seen from that point of view for sure