bigdawgbeav Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Due to a DQ at a sanctioned match I needed to re-evaluate my ammo. For the most part I was using SPP for lost brass matches since I don't care to lose it. Well, after the DQ for underpowered ammo I went back to the drawing board. This was never a problem with Clays. It was only after a switch to WST did I notice the reduced PF with the SPP. As usual, this isn't gospel and everyone is different, but I wanted to post the results of the latest chrono session. Info: ~10 rounds across chrono for each load ~4.0 grains of WST in all loads ~RIA 5" Rock Ultra hi-cap (14.45) Key: Bayou - Bayou Bullets RN BB-PC - Better Bullets Poly Coated RN LTC - Better Bullets Lead Truncated Cone It's interesting to see that the SPPs were considerably slower with WST than their LPP counterpart. I expected some difference, but not 50fps difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBunniFuFu Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 DQ for not making power? First thing out of my mouth would be "show me in the rule book" I've never heard of anything like that. Care to elaborate about the incident? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Try using a SRP. My velocity stayed within a few feet, + and -, when I went from LP to SP .45ACP. This was with Clays as that is all I use and was/is with KVB-223 Tula Primers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 DQ, really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdawgbeav Posted January 11, 2016 Author Share Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) DQ for not making power? First thing out of my mouth would be "show me in the rule book" I've never heard of anything like that. Care to elaborate about the incident? IDPA: 8.3.2.1.6 A competitor whose ammunition fails to make power factor will be allowed to shoot the match, but their total score will be a Disqualification So I was allowed to keep shooting for no score if I wanted. So there was no incident, 3 rounds failed to make 165 and then another 3 failed to make it in my gun. That was that. Maybe I should have been more specific in that the ammo was DQ'd, not me. But since we already shot a couple of stages I was not allowed to change from CDP to ESP. Edited January 11, 2016 by bigdawgbeav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 DQ for not making power? First thing out of my mouth would be "show me in the rule book" I've never heard of anything like that. Care to elaborate about the incident? IDPA: 8.3.2.1.6 A competitor whose ammunition fails to make power factor will be allowed to shoot the match, but their total score will be a Disqualification So I was allowed to keep shooting for no score if I wanted. So there was no incident, 3 rounds failed to make 165 and then another 3 failed to make it in my gun. That was that. Maybe I should have been more specific in that the ammo was DQ'd, not me. But since we already shot a couple of stages I was not allowed to change from CDP to ESP. Oh, IDPA. :^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 that is good data. thanks for sharing that. I figure one day I'll load up my spp brass and take it to a lost brass match, but I'll be sure to chrono it first. I tend to chrono with the same lot of ammo a week or two before any major match anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcc7x7 Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Worth checking my loads with SPP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mont1120 Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 I have fired thousands of rounds both SPP and LPP in .45, and I have them mixed up when I shoot matches. I can never tell the difference in one from the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 bigdawg, a DQ can only be for a safety violation, but not for meeting power floor. That is just IDPA wording. For a true DQ, you would be sent home, and not be able to finish the match, score or not. What you are talking about is not making the floor, for example, like dropping below minor, no safety violation, you can finish the match, but nothing will show for score. What you will learn to do is to load at least %5 above the floor, because speed varies with elevation and temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) That doesn't make sense, did the Match Director show you a rule that says you couldn't continue in ESP? For USPSA not making major would throw you into minor, but you would still score. Of course USPSA power floor is caliber based, unlike IDPA where the floor is division based. They should have let you continue in ESP since it would not have been an advantage, same as if you had a modification not allowed in CDP, or SSP, would throw you into ESP. Edited January 13, 2016 by 9x45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 I have fired thousands of rounds both SPP and LPP in .45, and I have them mixed up when I shoot matches. I can never tell the difference in one from the other. Same for me, I'm using Solo 1000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
safeactionjackson Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 bigdawg, a DQ can only be for a safety violation, but not for meeting power floor. That is just IDPA wording. For a true DQ, you would be sent home, and not be able to finish the match, score or not. What you are talking about is not making the floor, for example, like dropping below minor, no safety violation, you can finish the match, but nothing will show for score. What you will learn to do is to load at least %5 above the floor, because speed varies with elevation and temperature. I saw 3 competitors DQ's for not meeting BUG power factor at a national match in Nov (one is a forum inmate here, and it was discussed at length), they were allowed to finish the match but scores did not count. ~g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) safeaction, what IDPA rule did the Match Director site for the DQ? How can IDPA DQ a shooter unless it's a safety violation? What you are talking about is not meeting the power floor. That's not a true DQ. It's just the language that IDPA uses. How in the world can you not make a 95 floor for BUG Division? Might as well be SASS Cowboy, minimum power factor of 60 and no velocity may be less than 400 fps against all steel. Edited January 13, 2016 by 9x45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdawgbeav Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) It's a disqualification as stated in the rule book: 8.3.2.1.6 A competitor whose ammunition fails to make power factor will be allowed to shoot the match, but their total score will be a Disqualification The score is a DQ, not the shooter. Changing classes is a different animal. I am unable to find any specific rule that says you can't change after the match starts, but in this case I started shooting CDP. I would then move to ESP. Personally I don't see an issue as I'm actually at a disadvantage. Maybe its just widely accepted that when you start a match in one class you can't just switch to another since the rules are different. USPSA does major/minor, but that's only with scoring does it really matter. The equipment and capacity rules don't change. In IDPA, the equipment rules and capacity rules are different for the classes. Albeit for CDP and ESP the only difference is 2 less rounds for CDP and must be .45acp. I was unable to find a specific rule but I'm guessing that since I declared CDP on my registration then I'm required to play by those rules. Had I changed before the match started, then no issues... Can we get back to the actual discussion now? I posted this just as a courtesy for those .45acp shooters that find themselves with SPP brass. Strictly an FYI for those that shoot with WST that my velocities were significantly less with the SPPs. It could also be a matter of which SPPs you are using. I don't remember if these are Federal or CCI, I believe CCI SPPs. Edited January 13, 2016 by bigdawgbeav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chutist Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 IDPA - Wow... And I'll leave it at that. OP - So are you saying you went to a National Match without Choronographing the actual loads with SPP beforehand? Or did I miss understand?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njl Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I've posted the numbers before...but IIRC, doing .45acp with CCI LP/SP and WST, I generally lost around 20fps with SP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatman73 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 You need to up your load a bit. I have both powders and prefer clays. As far as primer size I've never noticed anything. I put the wst away I'll find another use for it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 What about using Magnum or Rifle primers? Might get you close to LPP ignition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Good data to know. Sorry it came up in an unfortunate situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdawgbeav Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 You need to up your load a bit. I have both powders and prefer clays. As far as primer size I've never noticed anything. I put the wst away I'll find another use for it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk If Clays were still available, I'd be using that. But I switched to WST and have 8lbs of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 I've had excellent luck with Clay Dot, but that's about as available as WST... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdawgbeav Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 I've had excellent luck with Clay Dot, but that's about as available as WST... Yea, couldn't find that either. Just need to be aware that i need to bump the charge when using SPP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatman73 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 You need to up your load a bit. I have both powders and prefer clays. As far as primer size I've never noticed anything. I put the wst away I'll find another use for it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk If Clays were still available, I'd be using that. But I switched to WST and have 8lbs of it. It's still not available? I bought an 8 lb of clays for me and one for a friend that wanted do you get into reloading. When he realized it wasn't as cheap as he thought he never paid me I kept his. At 4 grains a shot 16 lbs will last me a long time. Maybe I'll give the wst another shot. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyliearms Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 I destroy every .45 SPP case I find out of spite.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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