Ultimo-Hombre Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 You Chris get the first ever distinction of going on the ignore list . Goodbye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) ... If PCC is a popular concept as many have indicated then it should be possible to create a separate PCC match using the EXISTING rifle rules. In the UK they created a new discipline called mini-rifle (based on Ruger 1022's after the handgun ban)... The problem is one of critical mass. There are a lot of folks with PCCs, but not enough to be worth building a dedicated match. At my club (one of the most active in the US) we run a couple of matches each month combining PCC with other guns (shotgun, subgun, centerfire or rimfire rifles) to get there, but these are completely different matches with dedicated time slots, MDs/construction crews, stage designs and outlaw rules. None are as abundant nor as well suited to PCC as are USPSA handgun matches. I was there with you at the birth of UKPSA Mini Rifle. It had zero traction until we all had to surrender our handguns to the government, so I am not sure it has much relevance to the US situation (and I hope it never will). ... What I do not understand is why there is a need to insert a rifle into what has been (for decades) a stand-alone handgun match. This is a complete change of direction for Practical Shooting sports, this is not like adding a new handgun division, its adding a completely different firearm to a handgun match and then trying to alter rules and start positions to accommodate it. We ALREADY have a rule-set for rifle, there is nothing to stop a MD from arranging a match for PCC under those rules. ... Several others have made a compelling case for PCC in handgun matches. Here are my reasons: PCC in a USPSA handgun format match is tremendous fun (don't knock it till you try it) and presents a completely new and interesting set of shooting challenges. PCC in a USPSA handgun format match presents opportunities for new shooters to participate in long-gun action shooting at a much more economical price point than centerfire rifle matches. PCC in a USPSA handgun format match gives some of our long-time shooters a chance to freshen things up without leaving the USPSA handgun world entirely. PCC is a near-perfect fit to USPSA handguns match stages (targets and stage designs). In contrast, PCC is a poor fit to multigun/rifle matches due to the mismatch of target types and distances. PCC is a firearm market segment that is poised for substantial growth, and action shooting can be a big driver for that growth. USPSA can try to be a leading light in that success story, or we can adopt a protectionist, handgun-centric mindset and let PCC go the way of (outlaw) 3-Gun. Did I mention PCC in a USPSA handgun format match is FUN FUN FUN? ... I could see a case being made to run a PCC match AFTER a HANDGUN match has concluded using the same stage layout (with changes in course description to cater for a gun that has its own unique safety requirements), but I can't see why they both have to be shot at the same time. Running the same stages in a separate match could increase revenue for our clubs without impacting the people who just want to compete in a handgun match. Advantages to running a PCC match AFTER a HANDGUN match instead of concurrently: Competitors would be able to shoot the entire match with their handgun and then again using the PCC. PCC Competitors would be able to re-arrange the stage between matches to accommodate the needs of the longer gun. PCC Competitors would be able to write different WSB's if they wished, again to accommodate the rifle. There would be no need to insert special rules into the Handgun rule book for rifles. The existing Rifle rules could be used with only a new appendix required for this division. Clubs could get additional revenue as they would essentially have two matches one after the other with probably a lot of cross-over shooters. More activity fees for USPSA. No impact to the existing handgun matches. As a Match Director myself, here are some DISadvantages to running a PCC match AFTER a HANDGUN match instead of concurrently: Many USPSA handgun match competitors would be too tired to shoot both matches, meaning the biggest customer base for PCC (existing USPSA shooters) would likely not participate, or would have to choose one or the other. Match Directors and crew would have to hang around very late to tear down the PCC match. At matches where the shooters are expected to tear down, slim PCC participation could leave few to do the hard work at the end of the day. Handgun matches that typically run most of the day would have to be dumbed down considerably to get them finished in time to fit in the PCC match afterwards. Maybe run the PCC match FIRST, and give the handgunners the leftovers Edited January 31, 2016 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matteye Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 How about we try PCC's in steel challenge. They already have a RF rifle division. My local match director said I need to load light 9mm out of my 14.5" barrel PCC so I don't damage his steel. Really? I didn't push the mater. It would be allot of fun though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Can you tell me why this new division needs to be included into an existing handgun match ? In most states, a PCC is not legal to hunt during "rifle" seasons, largely because it is not a rifle, but a pistol caliber carbine. I don't think I have used the word "need" but to me CO, which you campaigned for, is similar in nature to PCC. A platform that is seeing increase use as a practical firearm for a growing number of people. I see no reason to not explore it with a provisional division in the same manner that CO is being explored in a provisional division. If either does not work, or works, but tweaks are needed, then that option is open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Can you tell me why this new division needs to be included into an existing handgun match ? In most states, a PCC is not legal to hunt during "rifle" seasons, largely because it is not a rifle, but a pistol caliber carbine. I would like to see a fact check on this one. You cant use rifle caliber rifles in some states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.McDevitt Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Can you tell me why this new division needs to be included into an existing handgun match ? In most states, a PCC is not legal to hunt during "rifle" seasons, largely because it is not a rifle, but a pistol caliber carbine. I don't think I have used the word "need" but to me CO, which you campaigned for, is similar in nature to PCC. A platform that is seeing increase use as a practical firearm for a growing number of people. I see no reason to not explore it with a provisional division in the same manner that CO is being explored in a provisional division. If either does not work, or works, but tweaks are needed, then that option is open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.McDevitt Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Now we're talking about Hunting, really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 I'm going to try to be helpful and propose some helpful rules for the provisional division I would like to see. My suggestions of rules for proposed a Pistol Carbine Caliber (PCC) Division No major power factor scoring. All scored Minor -One of the draws to PCC is being able to find cheap factory ammo compared to .22 and being able to run in a carbine setting. -Non 9mm version of PCC are harder to come by, and I can only name a few companies that make a .40cal and up compared to a few dozen that make 9mm variants. -PCC tend to be more accurate. Minimum cartridge dimensions 9x19 mm (0.354” x 0.748”) -Unique bullets such as the 5.7FN, .22TCM, and 4.7HK do not make minimum power factor and could cause damage to older steel. -30 Carbine, has almost the same ballistic profile as a .357 Mag. So should also be allowed. No Magazine Length limit or round limits -Magazine’s for PCC varies from Glock Mags up to specially built Lancer 9mm Mags, it would be hard press to limit one length of magazine from another. -There’s no need limit how many rounds should be in a magazine. -I would say to not allow Cinch Mags at this time as many mags just can’t be cinched properly. No Minimum Length on Barrel or restrictions against SBR. -One of the biggest if not the number one draw to PCC is the ability to turn them to an SBR due to no net lost to ballistic performance, and to have an overall smaller package. -It takes only a few hours to setup everything and send in your E Form 1. I just gone through this process myself and literally took me an hour to set up my trust and send off my form1, all it takes now is waiting on the approval. And depending on how you will setup your Form1, it will get easier for the individual after 13 July ’16 as they no longer need a CLEO signature. Yes to Suppressors. -You have to really go out of your way to get to “Hollywood” Quite. From what I’ve personally experience is that most common shot timers will pick shot pressure from 125PF ammo coming out of a suppressor. On the plus side the clock RO won’t hate you! Range Positions: weak hand vs strong hand. -These positions can still be done, and is a common firearm manipulation practice in the real world. PCC would be fired with the correct hand and shouldered while the other hand not touching the PCC. Starting Positions: -I think this is what causes some heart ache and would need to change vs pistol rules. -Starting positions that are neutral should start at the low ready. Starting position requiring hands above wrist = Port Arms with the PCC. -Table Starts = No Change -Up range start position. Just my thought, Shooter faces up range with unloaded PCC, upon start single turn, load and engage targets. Its up to the COMPETETIOR to ensure that their firearm is compliant with all US federal Laws. As popular as PCC is becoming I just don’t see the reason to run it as its own match, I don’t believe there would be enough participants in one area to justify it. I predict that we might see participants numbers equal to what we see for single stack in most areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPGMD Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 No Minimum Length on Barrel or restrictions against SBR. -One of the biggest if not the number one draw to PCC is the ability to turn them to an SBR due to no net lost to ballistic performance, and to have an overall smaller package. -It takes only a few hours to setup everything and send in your E Form 1. I just gone through this process myself and literally took me an hour to set up my trust and send off my form1, all it takes now is waiting on the approval. And depending on how you will setup your Form1, it will get easier for the individual after 13 July ’16 as they no longer need a CLEO signature. You say that as someone in the 30 or so states that can easily file NFA paperwork. Not everyone lives in such a state. Although the initial provisional rules will likely have no barrel limit. I think it will create an issue at Regional and National level matches unless the matches are built with that in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) I'm for PCC. But like I said, the longer I listen the more I doubt it's a good fit for straight up USPSA pistol matches. If we just flag the chambers then I guess we need a cart that keeps them pointing up or down like a 3 gun cart right? If they get cased then we can just carry them? I can tell you I'm not buying a cart for something I might do once or twice a season so I would be the guy grinding things to a halt by bagging mine after each stage. Problem is I don't want to be that guy and I don't want a guy like that in my squad. Now , shooting after the main match means me and maybe two other guys get to tear everything down and put it away. Oh by the way, we already showed up at 8am to help set up and shot 60-80 pistols until 2pm. Now we have to run ourselves, reset the stages and keep the MD at the match a couple of hours longer than he wants to be there. Next month he'll say, no guys, ain't happening. And I wouldn't want to repeat it myself. So it seems ,at least initially, the best way to do this is to run the occasional PCC match during the season. I Would be all in for that. Hell, I would run it! Maybe where you live there are 3 gunners shooting pistol matches to stay occupied between their main matches but around here there just are not that many 3 gun matches or shooters. We are very pistol match oriented in my part of the country . PCC's would be foreign Edited to add that there is also the issue of no long guns allowed in the pits at some clubs. The clubs I shoot at don't all allow long guns in the pits we use for pistol Edited January 31, 2016 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPGMD Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 If you are bagging it, you bag it immediately after the unload and show clear. It is no different than how most handle rimfire carbines in steel challenge. You either rack it on your cart, or you bag it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastly Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) I'm trying to imagine the vast amount of time spent bagging and unbagging guns. Especially when bagging and unbagging guns - in parallel - that already have a chamber flag inserted. I'm not seeing it. At our local outlaw multi-gun matches this flows just fine and they rotate matches between pistol, pistol/rifle, pistol/shotgun and pistol/rifle/shotgun. I've noticed that people who want the match to flow faster are really good at optimizing the process. On the other hand, I can readily recall the time consuming and unbounded make-ready dances that some prefer. This is not done in parallel (although it COULD be done when on deck to shoot) and I don't see anyone up in arms about it. Edited January 31, 2016 by Beastly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) I'm for PCC. But like I said, the longer I listen the more I doubt it's a good fit for straight up USPSA pistol matches. If we just flag the chambers then I guess we need a cart that keeps them pointing up or down like a 3 gun cart right? If they get cased then we can just carry them? I can tell you I'm not buying a cart for something I might do once or twice a season so I would be the guy grinding things to a halt by bagging mine after each stage. Sarge I hear what you're saying, I don't want you to get discourage either. It seems those who are against PCC use the stance that "It takes more time" in someway or form, I do find that pretty ironic as this is the only sport I can think that we competitors will wait an hour to just shoot for 20 or so secs at a time. I'm not sure what your 3Gun experience is considering you made a comment earlier how you don't have many clubs out where you live. So I can only tell you mine, I CRO 3 Major 3Gun Matches a year and I've done this since 2010, one of those 3 use USPSA Multigun Rules. This what happens at that match, I call the shooter up, they already have rifle in hand as they got everything together when they were called on deck. I tell shooter to Make ready, they insert mag, check to see if there dots on and go to the low ready. At ULSC. I tell the shooter to lock it back and keep it muzzle down or up, sometimes they'll put a flag in it, they then walk to their rifle bag which is usually by the side of the back berm and they bag their rifle. That's that, I don't see where people come up with "its going to take extra time" nonsense because that's what it is, nonsense. Edited January 31, 2016 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.McDevitt Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I have shot PCC at least five different clubs with no issues whatsoever as a second gun shot pistol first then pistol caliber carbine I have even added a sleeve to my cart and it works fine. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I'm going to try to be helpful and propose some helpful rules for the provisional division I would like to see.... Oh boy, now you gave every anti-PCCer something to freak out about I like some of your ideas, but I think some may be overthought. The debate about equipment is interesting, but definitely secondary to safety issues - gun handling and stage integration. Bearing in mind that PCCs would compete ONLY against other PCCs, I see no particularly compelling reason to force them to adhere to the stage requirements for handguns. Here are my thoughts: Start Position: Rather than try to write rules that cope with the almost infinite number of handgun start positions, I would suggest we standardize PCC start position as "standing in the start location, facing straight down range, PCC loaded/safe/held at low ready" (with a clear and simple definition of "low ready"). Easy and safe and pretty much universal. I imagine someone will come up with an exceptional situation where this won't work, but I am sure Troy could craft additional wording to cover those few instances (e.g. PCC staged in X-location). No uprange starts, no unloaded starts, no starts holding props etc... you get the idea. Special Stage Requirements: Strong hand/weak hand could be strong shoulder/weak shoulder. Mandatory reloads are the same, of course. If stage designers want to do other things (e.g. carrying something in the strong hand etc.) they could either require the PCC to comply also, or exempt PCC from that requirement, or mandate an alternative for PCC... I would be inclined to let the MD be the final arbiter based on the circumstances. Gun Handling: Consider an open bolt indicator to be the functional equivalent of a holster. When they are on-deck, the shooter unbags their PCC in the nearest safety area (yes, additional safety areas may be needed - not difficult), then brings the PCC with OBI installed to the start position, muzzle straight up or down (not hanging by a sling). After shooting, clear as usual, re-insert OBI and return to the safety area to re-bag the PCC. Call the range safe as soon as OBI is inserted (same as pistol being in the holster). Move the gun between stages only in a bag or gun cart. This is exactly what we do in multigun, and it works supremely well. I'd definitely like to see these questions debated openly, but it is not like we are doing this in a vacuum - we already have several decades of experience using long guns in action shooting events, so none of these concerns should be insurmountable if there is a will to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 ...Maybe where you live there are 3 gunners shooting pistol matches to stay occupied between their main matches but around here there just are not that many 3 gun matches or shooters. We are very pistol match oriented in my part of the country . PCC's would be foreign Edited to add that there is also the issue of no long guns allowed in the pits at some clubs. The clubs I shoot at don't all allow long guns in the pits we use for pistol Remember, there is NOTHING in current USPSA rules that requires an MD to recognize any particular division. If the MD, the club/shooting range management, or local regulations make PCC too difficult/impossible, then of course there will be no such division. This is a non-issue, pure and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.McDevitt Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I'm curious where you live that PCC's would be foreign Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Now we're talking about Hunting, really No, just that there are actual definitions for what constitutes a rifle in some states and a PCC does not fall under that definition. The anti-PCCs want to call them rifles, and they are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 -30 Carbine, has almost the same ballistic profile as a .357 Mag. So should also be allowed. No it does not. The .357Mag and .30 Carbine have very different terminal ballistics on steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Range Positions: weak hand vs strong hand. -These positions can still be done, and is a common firearm manipulation practice in the real world. PCC would be fired with the correct hand and shouldered while the other hand not touching the PCC. If that is a rule, then our club will not be offering it as a Division. A smaller statured person, or weaker person, not only unsafe, but likely not possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.McDevitt Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 They don't have to do that they can take a penalty Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 Range Positions: weak hand vs strong hand. -These positions can still be done, and is a common firearm manipulation practice in the real world. PCC would be fired with the correct hand and shouldered while the other hand not touching the PCC. If that is a rule, then our club will not be offering it as a Division. A smaller statured person, or weaker person, not only unsafe, but likely not possible. You think so? I've seen small statures ladies able to do this with a M4 while dragging dummies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 They don't have to do that they can take a penalty Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Not at the start position... Sent from the range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 How about we try PCC's in steel challenge. They already have a RF rifle division. My local match director said I need to load light 9mm out of my 14.5" barrel PCC so I don't damage his steel. Really? I didn't push the mater. It would be allot of fun though. We are getting started with PCC in steel challenge. It was approved as a provisional division for steel challenge in November. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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