Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[Ultimo-Hombre]

You guys would freak at the newest 3 gun concept of a slung rifle is a "dead stick." At the recent Ft. Benning 3 Gun, we started with a slung rifle, and shot the other 2 guns while crawling along a couple low ports, climbing over a wall, crawling under 35 ft. of barb wire and climbing into a Jeep. All the while the rifle was on our backs with the muzzle going every which way. At dinner, we discussed the "dead stick" concept, and most would have been more comfortable with it if the RO had actually checked the chambers prior to the start!

Cmon, Kevin, don't give up so easily! The provo. rules aren't even out yet, This will work out. No to Timmy slung rifles, yes to chamber flags, yes to muzzle up at ULASC. If someone violates muzzle discipline, DQ him! This will require modifications to the rules to accommodate PCC handling and start positions, I think everyone realizes that.

How would you address the concerns I outlined in my post immediately above (471)

If you ignore them and say "it will all work out" well, then you are supporting my theory that too many guys are clouded by AR lust.

And you are right, Benning 3 gun does not sound like something I want to be around.

[OPENB]

I realize current USPSA rules prohibit handling gun yadayada. I'm I guess I'm coming from my experience in 3 gun, where we do as I suggested in post #473. I assume Marco has the same experience. It has worked well that way for many years, matches flow, and there is no heartburn, and I've never felt unsafe. Ultimo, I believe your concerns are we have rules against handling guns off the line, so why would we make an exception for PCC, correct? I would be willing to bag/unbag instead of using my 3 gun cart if the Provo. Rules say so. In my experience, which is mine alone, it isn't necessary. That's what I meant by "it will work out".

What would having PCC-separate matches accomplish? is it so if we want to shoot ourselves, go right ahead? The current rules still say no gun handling off the line, so if there were separate matches, we'd still have to change the rules.

Edited January 30, 2016 by OPENB

[OPENB]

I guess "dead stick" isn't just Benning, it is moving through 3 gun. It was my first exposure to it.

[OPENB]

Besides a separate match, what would make you comfortable with PCC as a new division, top to bottom?

[teros135]

A new division in multi-gun. Not applicable to USPSA pistol. (You asked...)

[2MoreChains]

I bow to your ingenuity. But I still want to see you do that with a pelican case.

A guy is going to come in with an inexpensive PCC and a pelican case?

Sure why not? People will use all manner of cases to carry their guns in. I once had a new shooter show up to a SC match with a Ruger rifle slung over her shoulder. 5 mins with a cardboard box, a knife, and some duct tape and she was headed to her first stage.

But I suspect PCCs are gonna have a pretty wide range from the "inexpensive" to "decidedly less so".

[OPENB]

No, I asked. I want an honest discourse. Doesn't mean we have to agree. Will you stop going to USPSA matches when the provo. PCC rules come out, in protest? Or will you go that far?

[wgj3]

Haters gonna hate...

Y'all are indeed trying to make this WAAAAY too complicated and attempting to kill if before it even has a chance.

The "P" in PCC makes the USPSA Handgun matches a better fit. You would have to significantly alter stages to shorten the longer shots to make PCC work in Carbine or 3G matches. Let's try to think of ways to make it work instead of finding all the worst-case scenarios to sink it.

I'm not bringing a huge hard case to a stage.

Props used as support is already covered.

Zero need to bias stages for PCC.

This is not nearly as bad as some of you are making it out to be. Just relax and let it happen. If there are legit concerns after it starts, we can sort it out then. Can't we all just get along?

Edited January 30, 2016 by wgj3

[Strick]

Haters gonna hate...

. Can't we all just get along?

Apparently we can as long as everyone agrees with what you want to do. LOL

[wgj3]

I have done ZERO hating. Every post I've made in this thread has been an attempt at figuring out how to possibly make it work without sacrificing anything for the pistol shooters. I've not asked anyone to agree with me. I've made no blanket statements saying that any one person or group was going to screw up matches. I've simply asked for a mindset that looks to solve potential "problems" rather than exacerbate as yet unproven "issues" that could possibly change match dynamics.

Edited January 30, 2016 by wgj3

[OPENB]

Ah, the "H" word was used again. I think the tone of this thread had turned much more mental & less emotional. Let's keep it going that way. I admit I do see more of Ultimo & Teros' view, & I think Ultimo is maybe thinking this might not be all suck. Good.

[teros135]

That's an old strategy. Paint all those who disagree as a "hater" (or whatever) and dismiss what they say.

There are other strategies. "Let's all get along" (and do it my way) is another.

"Foot in the door" can work. Let's just try it out, and we'll work out the problems as we go along.

It's still a rifle in a pistol discipline, and there are way too many arguments about handling the guns when not under the direct supervision of the ROs, which is part of what keeps USPSA pistol as safe as it is.

Part of the problem, I think, is the incredible laxity in RO supervision at "local" (i.e., Level I) matches. It's been discussed in a great many Enos threads that so many seem to think it's a "good thing for the sport" to let the rules slide for "newbies" and others at locals. That's not going to go well with hands-on rifles. I believe we need to clean up our act with regard to structure and safety before we could even think about adding another whole level of gun handling to our sport.

(In that vein, I especially love one local club's rule about "safe ADs"; the AD goes into the berm and they get a pass to keep shooting. It's kind of like "well, nobody got shot, so it's okay". I could go on, but that's for another thread)

Edited January 30, 2016 by teros135

[aandabooks]

I don't shoot much 3 gun but my club has a match on the 5th Sunday when those happen. First couple stages it was a little weird having guns out and pointing at people as the carts and wagons moved around. After not too long it became more normal and I got more comfortable with it.

As to all of the concerns with the weakhand, turn and draws and such. Just run the PCC under a different starting position or eliminate and strong/weak hand requirements. The PCC shooters will be competing with themselves and don't worry as a pistol shooter how you stack up against them.

[teros135]

In USPSA Pistol there aren't any guns "pointing at people". The whole purpose of safety is to have the gun NOT pointing at anyone, just in case. Remember Jeff Cooper's 3 rules of gun handling:

1. All guns are loaded (i.e, Always treat every gun as if loaded).

2. Never let the muzzle cover anything which you are not willing to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Always be sure of your target (and everything beyond it).

These are actually based on the laws of nature and physics. We don't want anybody "assuming" that a gun is safe because we "think" it's not loaded - regarding our gun handling, it's always loaded.

(Okay, somebody's going to argue the rule that you can (briefly) sweep your leg while drawing. That's under RO supervision, the choice of the competitor, and very brief. It's not while dragging your gun around in your hand.)

Regarding giving PCC different start positions and eliminating SH/WH stage requirements - now you're creating a new set of rules for USPSA Pistol matches. How many of us could come up with a good rationale for either of those? (Hint, we're on the premier site for those kinds of discussions.)

And regarding "who cares what they do, we're not competing against them", if they need their own discipline, then they can create one. That's not really a logical argument, as in "we're not competing against the AR15s, why not let them be a discipline in our matches". (Which leads to the argument that we'd have to change how are stages are set up, etc. to let them in, but we could, and here's how, and it wouldn't be a bad thing, and it would grow the sport, etc. etc.)

[StealthyBlagga]

In USPSA Pistol there aren't any guns "pointing at people". ...

NOT TRUE - I have my feet swept by other people's holstered pistols all the time at USPSA handgun matches. It is just that we (rightly) regard a holstered pistol to be inert and inherently safe. I trust Troy to establish gun handling protocols that will render PCCs equally safe when off the line. I'd suggest folks give him a chance before nixing the whole idea.

Edited January 31, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Ah, the "H" word was used again. I think the tone of this thread had turned much more mental & less emotional. Let's keep it going that way. I admit I do see more of Ultimo & Teros' view, & I think Ultimo is maybe thinking this might not be all suck. Good.

Thanks Amigo,

I have said my peace on this issue for the most part. If guys with AR's at our local pistol matches start muzzling me I guess I'll just have to deal with personally.

Honestly I'm really disappointed in the way this is all shaking out. I feel like if I want to keep shooting USPSA I just need to accept the fact that guys are gonna be strutting around with AR's, with no more regard to the safety rules I came to love this game under.

But hey. I am just a "hater" right.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Ultimo-Hombre

[Sarge]

In USPSA Pistol there aren't any guns "pointing at people". ...

NOT TRUE - I have my feet swept by other people's holstered pistols all the time at USPSA handgun matches. It is just that we (rightly) regard a holstered pistol to be inert and inherently safe. I trust Troy to establish gun handling protocols that will render PCCs equally safe when off the line.

That would mean putting the rifle in a case or holster. Equally as safe as a holster is a holster

[StealthyBlagga]

In USPSA Pistol there aren't any guns "pointing at people". ...

NOT TRUE - I have my feet swept by other people's holstered pistols all the time at USPSA handgun matches. It is just that we (rightly) regard a holstered pistol to be inert and inherently safe. I trust Troy to establish gun handling protocols that will render PCCs equally safe when off the line.

That would mean putting the rifle in a case or holster. Equally as safe as a holster is a holster

Like I said, let's give Troy a chance to reach his own conclusions on how best to manage PCC gun handling.

[alma]

In USPSA Pistol there aren't any guns "pointing at people". ...

NOT TRUE - I have my feet swept by other people's holstered pistols all the time at USPSA handgun matches. It is just that we (rightly) regard a holstered pistol to be inert and inherently safe. I trust Troy to establish gun handling protocols that will render PCCs equally safe when off the line.

That would mean putting the rifle in a case or holster. Equally as safe as a holster is a holster

or Chamber flag?

[Sarge]

In USPSA Pistol there aren't any guns "pointing at people". ...

NOT TRUE - I have my feet swept by other people's holstered pistols all the time at USPSA handgun matches. It is just that we (rightly) regard a holstered pistol to be inert and inherently safe. I trust Troy to establish gun handling protocols that will render PCCs equally safe when off the line.

That would mean putting the rifle in a case or holster. Equally as safe as a holster is a holster

or Chamber flag?

Not "equally" as safe as a holstered gun. I personally believe it would be good enough but what about a new shooter pulling his pistol out of a holster when he sees uncased rifles sitting around? Starting to look like more to this than we think

[MarkCO]

I feel like if I want to keep shooting USPSA I just need to accept the fact that guys are gonna be strutting around with AR's, with no more regard to the safety rules I came to love this game under.

But there are NO facts to support how you feel. You are making assumptions and impuning the integrity of AR owners and those who are working on the rules based on your imagination only. It is only talk of people who don't want it trashing the potential solutions of those who do.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

In USPSA Pistol there aren't any guns "pointing at people". ...

NOT TRUE - I have my feet swept by other people's holstered pistols all the time at USPSA handgun matches. It is just that we (rightly) regard a holstered pistol to be inert and inherently safe. I trust Troy to establish gun handling protocols that will render PCCs equally safe when off the line.

That would mean putting the rifle in a case or holster. Equally as safe as a holster is a holster

Like I said, let's give Troy a chance to reach his own conclusions on how best to manage PCC gun handling.

I don't know Troy,

But I know that a smart guy follows the opinions of a guy who signs his paycheck.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

In USPSA Pistol there aren't any guns "pointing at people". ...

NOT TRUE - I have my feet swept by other people's holstered pistols all the time at USPSA handgun matches. It is just that we (rightly) regard a holstered pistol to be inert and inherently safe. I trust Troy to establish gun handling protocols that will render PCCs equally safe when off the line.

That would mean putting the rifle in a case or holster. Equally as safe as a holster is a holster

or Chamber flag?

Is this going to be a standardized piece of equipment?

[Ultimo-Hombre]

I feel like if I want to keep shooting USPSA I just need to accept the fact that guys are gonna be strutting around with AR's, with no more regard to the safety rules I came to love this game under.

But there are NO facts to support how you feel. You are making assumptions and impuning the integrity of AR owners and those who are working on the rules based on your imagination only. It is only talk of people who don't want it trashing the potential solutions of those who do.

Really,

I thought more of you.

Do you think I don't want this?

I am looking forward to shooting this.

I just am of the opinion that it should be a separate match since it needs a different set of rules.

How about this....

PCC. Is a regular division at a match that has El presidente as a classifier. Since I'm guessing you agree we don't need a hot rifle, shooters hand on the pistol grip facing up range.

Then he gets to start facing down range... Well that's not an El Prez anymore is it?

Hey, I get it, you are gonna dismiss me as a hater, or whatever because you WANT to shoot PCC.

Here's the thing, I want to shoot it too. I just don't want us to cut off our noses despite our faces.

And Mark, thus has nothing to do with AR owners. I am one also.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Ultimo-Hombre

[Ultimo-Hombre]

I feel like if I want to keep shooting USPSA I just need to accept the fact that guys are gonna be strutting around with AR's, with no more regard to the safety rules I came to love this game under.

But there are NO facts to support how you feel. You are making assumptions and impuning the integrity of AR owners and those who are working on the rules based on your imagination only. It is only talk of people who don't want it trashing the potential solutions of those who do.

And... There are no facts, because this division DOSNT EXIST YET.

Look at open B's post about how at his Benning 3 gun match they have "dead stick" rifles flopping all over the place with no regard to muzzle direction.

F-that.

I am not opposed toPCC

I think it should be a seperate match because the rule changes it calls for change the competition fundamentals enough to make it a different discipline.