Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[DocMedic]

-30 Carbine, has almost the same ballistic profile as a .357 Mag. So should also be allowed.

No it does not. The .357Mag and .30 Carbine have very different terminal ballistics on steel.

My research is only done online so I have no "hands-on" experience, maybe you could shine some light on it for me, but I was able to find ballistic information for both .357 Magnum and .30 Carbine from Revolver information, .357 was S&W 6 inch revolver, and the 30 carbine from a Ruger "The New Blackhawk" in a 7.5 inch barrel;

110gr .357 was producing 1500 FPS coming from the muzzle.

110gr 30 Carbine from the Blackhawk was producing 1525ish FPS from the muzzle.

Again this is what I found using open source information on the "Interwebs" And I have no actual hands on experience on either bullet.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

So while a guy is casing/ uncasing his rifle up range, not under RO supervision and he sweeps me there will be consequences. If USPSA dosnt penalize him, state statutes will. You point a gun at me, loaded or not you are breaking the law. I refuse to accept having rifles pointed at me, and I'm not gonna let you guys run me off for it.

So let's do this. I'm your huckleberry!

[ZackJones]

-30 Carbine, has almost the same ballistic profile as a .357 Mag. So should also be allowed.

Mike Foley said No to 30 Carbine on the USPSA forum.

If you are bagging it, you bag it immediately after the unload and show clear. It is no different than how most handle rimfire carbines in steel challenge. You either rack it on your cart, or you bag it.

Only problem with that idea is that you typically end the stage at a position other than where you started.

[ZackJones]

I posted this question on the USPSA forum but I'll post it here as well. How will PCC with iron sights and PCCs with red dots compete? Will they compete only against each other or will they be combined like they are in steel challenge?

I also think Ultimo-Hombre brought up a very good point about classifiers. It may be a good ideal to go through the classifier book and see which ones wouldn't be appropriate for PCC.

[DocMedic]

I posted this question on the USPSA forum but I'll post it here as well. How will PCC with iron sights and PCCs with red dots compete? Will they compete only against each other or will they be combined like they are in steel challenge?

I also think Ultimo-Hombre brought up a very good point about classifiers. It may be a good ideal to go through the classifier book and see which ones wouldn't be appropriate for PCC.

Maybe you have a different experience then me when it comes to PCC, but I would say over 90% will readily accept a Optic due to built in rail system. Looking over my current MPX with iron sights I do not see "huge" disadvantage running a set of irons vs that of a optic. The longer slide helps with this allowing longer sight radius for iron shooters.

-30 Carbine, has almost the same ballistic profile as a .357 Mag. So should also be allowed.

Mike Foley said No to 30 Carbine on the USPSA forum.

Well that answers that.

So while a guy is casing/ uncasing his rifle up range, not under RO supervision and he sweeps me there will be consequences. If USPSA dosnt penalize him, state statutes will. You point a gun at me, loaded or not you are breaking the law. I refuse to accept having rifles pointed at me, and I'm not gonna let you guys run me off for it.

So let's do this. I'm your huckleberry!

Interesting..

Edited January 31, 2016 by DocMedic

[MarkCO]

-30 Carbine, has almost the same ballistic profile as a .357 Mag. So should also be allowed.

No it does not. The .357Mag and .30 Carbine have very different terminal ballistics on steel.

My research is only done online so I have no "hands-on" experience, maybe you could shine some light on it for me, but I was able to find ballistic information for both .357 Magnum and .30 Carbine from Revolver information, .357 was S&W 6 inch revolver, and the 30 carbine from a Ruger "The New Blackhawk" in a 7.5 inch barrel;

110gr .357 was producing 1500 FPS coming from the muzzle.

110gr 30 Carbine from the Blackhawk was producing 1525ish FPS from the muzzle.

Again this is what I found using open source information on the "Interwebs" And I have no actual hands on experience on either bullet.

That is totally accurate. .30 carbine 110s, from carbines, are about 2000 to 2200 fps though. The issue is the interaction with steel. .30 Carbines at close distance transfer little energy into the deformation of the bullet and are a significant ricochet hazard. .357 Mag bullets will typically splatter, disrupt and not an issue. The longer, smaller diameter bullet does not consistently disrupt, especially at angles, and can leave the face of a steel target at velocities in excess of 1000 fps. A 110 at 1000 is above the fatal threshold. No other bullet we shoot is that way. You have seen slugs, shot at close range on steel, that is close to how a .30 carbine behaves on steel. A .223 at 10 feet is total splatter and safer, but none of the rules allow that. You can analyze it with impulse-momentum and plasticity analysis, but I hope that explanation is enough.

[Bkreutz]

-30 Carbine, has almost the same ballistic profile as a .357 Mag. So should also be allowed.

Mike Foley said No to 30 Carbine on the USPSA forum.

If you are bagging it, you bag it immediately after the unload and show clear. It is no different than how most handle rimfire carbines in steel challenge. You either rack it on your cart, or you bag it.

Only problem with that idea is that you typically end the stage at a position other than where you started.

I found it interesting that a potential new division, in which all the options were still in the discussion stage, already had eliminated a caliber. Sure sounds like a lot of things are already decided but not announced. (I have no plans of dragging my 71 year old M1 Carbine through the mud and throwing it in a barrel, I'm just making observations).

Edited January 31, 2016 by Bkreutz

[MarkCO]

Range Positions: weak hand vs strong hand.

-These positions can still be done, and is a common firearm manipulation practice in the real world. PCC would be fired with the correct hand and shouldered while the other hand not touching the PCC.

If that is a rule, then our club will not be offering it as a Division. A smaller statured person, or weaker person, not only unsafe, but likely not possible.

You think so? I've seen small statures ladies able to do this with a M4 while dragging dummies.

Me too, but the USPSA rulebooks have rules about physicality and if we want PCC into USPSA pistol matches, we really need to leave the 3Gun and associated challenges we both like about that OUT of USPSA pistol matches.

[ZackJones]

I posted this question on the USPSA forum but I'll post it here as well. How will PCC with iron sights and PCCs with red dots compete? Will they compete only against each other or will they be combined like they are in steel challenge?

I also think Ultimo-Hombre brought up a very good point about classifiers. It may be a good ideal to go through the classifier book and see which ones wouldn't be appropriate for PCC.

Maybe you have a different experience then me when it comes to PCC, but I would say over 90% will readily accept a Optic due to built in rail system. Looking over my current MPX with iron sights I do not see "huge" disadvantage running a set of irons vs that of a optic. The longer slide helps with this allowing longer sight radius for iron shooters.

Actually I have very little experience but I plan to have a lot more in the future. I'll run a red dot on mine but what I'm wondering is if someone not running a red dot would have a valid complaint? I suppose the rules could say that red dot is authorized and then it's up to the shooter to decide if he runs one or not.

[MarkCO]

So while a guy is casing/ uncasing his rifle up range, not under RO supervision and he sweeps me there will be consequences. If USPSA dosnt penalize him, state statutes will. You point a gun at me, loaded or not you are breaking the law. I refuse to accept having rifles pointed at me, and I'm not gonna let you guys run me off for it.

That is actually something I agree with you about. I am not sure of the best way to incorporate that, but like I just said, I think stuff from 3Gun needs to stay in 3Gun. Consider PCC a guest and if the guest gets unruly, I will be there asking it to leave.

[Sarge]

If you are bagging it, you bag it immediately after the unload and show clear. It is no different than how most handle rimfire carbines in steel challenge. You either rack it on your cart, or you bag it.

If you finish 25 yards down range then the bag needs to be brought to you or you have to be brought back to the start location. If you don't have a buddy willing to carry it for you then it's back to the start location. I won't bother an RO to carry it nor would I carry it as an RO for anybody else

[PPGMD]

-30 Carbine, has almost the same ballistic profile as a .357 Mag. So should also be allowed.

Mike Foley said No to 30 Carbine on the USPSA forum.

If you are bagging it, you bag it immediately after the unload and show clear. It is no different than how most handle rimfire carbines in steel challenge. You either rack it on your cart, or you bag it.

Only problem with that idea is that you typically end the stage at a position other than where you started.

Then you clear it, put the flag in it, and walk back to the start of the stage to bag it.

[ZackJones]

I found it interesting that a potential new division, in which all the options were still in the discussion stage, already had eliminated a caliber. Sure sounds like a lot of things are already decided but not announced.

I discussed this with Troy when I was putting the proposal together for PCC for steel challenge and in then end I requested 9mm/.40S&W/10MM & .45 ACP primarily because I had no idea that 30 carbine was considered a pistol caliber. Perhaps they just need some educating?

[MarkCO]

I found it interesting that a potential new division, in which all the options were still in the discussion stage, already had eliminated a caliber. Sure sounds like a lot of things are already decided but not announced.

I discussed this with Troy when I was putting the proposal together for PCC for steel challenge and in then end I requested 9mm/.40S&W/10MM & .45 ACP primarily because I had no idea that 30 carbine was considered a pistol caliber. Perhaps they just need some educating?

It is NOT a pistol caliber and even if it was, the terminal ballistics with steel make it a no go.

[ZackJones]

I found it interesting that a potential new division, in which all the options were still in the discussion stage, already had eliminated a caliber. Sure sounds like a lot of things are already decided but not announced.

I discussed this with Troy when I was putting the proposal together for PCC for steel challenge and in then end I requested 9mm/.40S&W/10MM & .45 ACP primarily because I had no idea that 30 carbine was considered a pistol caliber. Perhaps they just need some educating?

It is NOT a pistol caliber and even if it was, the terminal ballistics with steel make it a no go.

Thanks, Mark. I guess that's good enough reason for it to be excluded from PCC then.

[Sarge]

I'm going to try to be helpful and propose some helpful rules for the provisional division I would like to see....

Oh boy, now you gave every anti-PCCer something to freak out about

I like some of your ideas, but I think some may be overthought. The debate about equipment is interesting, but definitely secondary to safety issues - gun handling and stage integration.

Bearing in mind that PCCs would compete ONLY against other PCCs, I see no particularly compelling reason to force them to adhere to the stage requirements for handguns. Here are my thoughts:

Start Position: Rather than try to write rules that cope with the almost infinite number of handgun start positions, I would suggest we standardize PCC start position as "standing in the start location, facing straight down range, PCC loaded/safe/held at low ready" (with a clear and simple definition of "low ready"). Easy and safe and pretty much universal. I imagine someone will come up with an exceptional situation where this won't work, but I am sure Troy could craft additional wording to cover those few instances (e.g. PCC staged in X-location). No uprange starts, no unloaded starts, no starts holding props etc... you get the idea.

Special Stage Requirements: Strong hand/weak hand could be strong shoulder/weak shoulder. Mandatory reloads are the same, of course. If stage designers want to do other things (e.g. carrying something in the strong hand etc.) they could either require the PCC to comply also, or exempt PCC from that requirement, or mandate an alternative for PCC... I would be inclined to let the MD be the final arbiter based on the circumstances.

Gun Handling: Consider an open bolt indicator to be the functional equivalent of a holster. When they are on-deck, the shooter unbags their PCC in the nearest safety area (yes, additional safety areas may be needed - not difficult), then brings the PCC with OBI installed to the start position, muzzle straight up or down (not hanging by a sling). After shooting, clear as usual, re-insert OBI and return to the safety area to re-bag the PCC. Call the range safe as soon as OBI is inserted (same as pistol being in the holster). Move the gun between stages only in a bag or gun cart. This is exactly what we do in multigun, and it works supremely well.

I'd definitely like to see these questions debated openly, but it is not like we are doing this in a vacuum - we already have several decades of experience using long guns in action shooting events, so none of these concerns should be insurmountable if there is a will to do so.

I shoot at two clubs that actually only have one safety area. Way too far away to walk repeatedly not to mention you would be walking among the rest of the shooters with an uncased rifle.

The clubs I shoot at are not "USPSA clubs" . They are host clubs so we can't just make every picnic table a safety area. God only knows how the other members would react to rifles being carried around uncased.

[MarkCO]

I do grin in some of the discussions...I have an AR chambered in 6.5PCC.

.300BO, even running subs, with some bullets is going to have a problem with terminal ballistics on steel as well. I think making USPSA ROs check bullet construction is, as a "guest", going too far.

[d_striker]

Now we're talking about Hunting, really

No, just that there are actual definitions for what constitutes a rifle in some states and a PCC does not fall under that definition. The anti-PCCs want to call them rifles, and they are not.

If an AR has a butt stock, it's a rifle. You know this Mark.

Citing what the DOW considers a "rifle" and using that argument in this discussion is a little disingenuous.

Edited January 31, 2016 by d_striker

[d_striker]

Range Positions: weak hand vs strong hand.

-These positions can still be done, and is a common firearm manipulation practice in the real world. PCC would be fired with the correct hand and shouldered while the other hand not touching the PCC.

If that is a rule, then our club will not be offering it as a Division. A smaller statured person, or weaker person, not only unsafe, but likely not possible.

You think so? I've seen small statures ladies able to do this with a M4 while dragging dummies.

Have you seen a 12 year old girl do it?

[Ultimo-Hombre]

-30 Carbine, has almost the same ballistic profile as a .357 Mag. So should also be allowed.

Mike Foley said No to 30 Carbine on the USPSA forum.

If you are bagging it, you bag it immediately after the unload and show clear. It is no different than how most handle rimfire carbines in steel challenge. You either rack it on your cart, or you bag it.

Only problem with that idea is that you typically end the stage at a position other than where you started.

Then you clear it, put the flag in it, and walk back to the start of the stage to bag it.

See my previous post.

"Flag" means nothing to me.

Nor does a chamber flag exist anywhere in my states criminal statutes. You point a gun at someone, loaded or not "chamber flag" or not you just broke the law. Period.

You point it at me, "flag" or not you are gonna have consequences.

It's a bummer this debate has come to this, but oh well. Im not going anywhere and I'm not gonna let anyone put me at risk for a game. Want to add a division, perhaps you should have had a little respect. Can jam it, and see what you get.

[MarkCO]

Now we're talking about Hunting, really

No, just that there are actual definitions for what constitutes a rifle in some states and a PCC does not fall under that definition. The anti-PCCs want to call them rifles, and they are not.

If an AR has a butt stock, it's a rifle. You know this Mark.

Citing what the DOW considers a "rifle" and using that argument in this discussion is a little disingenuous.

Actually, it can be a PCC, a Carbine a SBR or a rifle. Splitting hairs...yes, and exactly why I posted it. If you go back and read some of the arguments of CO, they had a similar vein. Sometimes the contrarian argument is beneficial to get people to take off blinders. So yes, a little disingenuous.

[Strick]

Actually, it can be a PCC, a Carbine a SBR or a rifle. Splitting hairs...yes, and exactly why I posted it.

All those are rifles, period. They are different types and lengths of rifles but they are rifles.

[OPENB]

Ultimo, have you ever been muzzled at a pistol match? I have. Cops weren't called, no one was prosecuted, and no one resorted to physical violence, as I believe you are intimating with your last couple posts. If so, which did you do, call the cops or hand out "consequences"?

[busdriver02]

"Flag" means nothing to me.

Nor does a chamber flag exist anywhere in my states criminal statutes. You point a gun at someone, loaded or not "chamber flag" or not you just broke the law. Period.

You point it at me, "flag" or not you are gonna have consequences.

It's a bummer this debate has come to this, but oh well. Im not going anywhere and I'm not gonna let anyone put me at risk for a game. Want to add a division, perhaps you should have had a little respect. Can jam it, and see what you get.

It's not really that hard to point the muzzle at the ground/up, walk back to the start point and drop it into a bag. If a club wanted to put a rack at each bay, it would be just as easy to keep it pointed straight up and re-rack it. Neither scenario needs to have people getting flagged by muzzles.

Squad all the carbine shooters together and make them carry each others bags if that'll keep things moving.

[OPENB]

Curious what Idaho statute covers a competitor accidently muzzling another competitor at a shooting competition? I can tell you in Ohio, there isn't one. Intent is the key. Unless you can prove someone purposefully pointed a gun at you, with the intent of making you believe he was going to shoot you, I don't see a prosecutor taking that case. Negligent assault would be if he recklessly pointed the gun at you, AND he then shot you. But if that happened, you have everyone's permission to punch him.