OPENB Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) I'm all for PCC, but do not want up range starts with it in the shooters hands. Disaster waiting to happen. Muzzle up or down to the line, shoot the stage, chamber flag & carry it back. Works all the time every time. We don't start facing up range with a gun in hand in 3gun. Edited January 30, 2016 by OPENB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 What's wrong with inserting a chamber flag at ICHD in order to declare Range is Clear? Then carry it muzzle down to where your bag/case/kart is, where it remains until you get the make ready for your next stage. Wouldn't that satisfy the most Fudd-ite of clubs? I know it would be sufficient for mine. How about we just bag/ case the long gun at the line? Just like we do at SC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 The fundamental part is not having a rifle with the trigger exposed while having people down range. Logical solution is to treat uncasing/ casing just like we do in SC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 C'mon Sarge, think about it. No different than starting facing uprange with a loaded holstered pistol. A shooter can draw early sweeping the squad just as easily as someone can raise a rifle early sweeping the squad. It all comes down to safe gun handling. No, not the same. With a pistol up range start there's no hand on the gun. The turn and drawstroke both start at the beep, so there's at least some delay getting your hand on the gun. It doesn't seem so with a rifle if the hands are alead on it. I'd also leave a match that has hands on the gun for an uprange start. There are too many unsafe people here as it is. It's why I don't go to multi-gun matches here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) Wow, this thread is full of derp. FYI, for everyone, don't be afraid of something new. Try it before you dismiss it. Ignorance is truly bliss If you are not willing to try something before condemning it. For those clubs which have tried it, how did it work out? Did you have to redesign your pistol stages to accomodate the rifles? I bet not, that is not the point of PCC. Just shoot a pistol caliber caliber carbine on your existing pistol stages. If you have not tried it then you truly have no experience , sure you can have opinions, but there is no experience to back it up. I will be willing to bet that this will be a provisional division at the next BOD meeting and will be much more popular than carry optics in a short time period as long as the BOD dont screw it up by neutering the division like they did with CO. CO got a boost by revising the rules but they stuck with the 10rd limit, very bad decision in my opinion. Who carries a fill size pistol with an optic and only 10 rounds? A 141.25mm mag makes much more sense. But I digress. You may not agree with me, but until you run PCC as part of a pistol match you are just guessing if it will work. Try it first, then report your experiences if it will or won't work. My guess it will be seamless to integrate as I have experienced. Rules took all of 5 minutes to come up with to integrate the carbines into a pistol match. Holster start? Low ready. Table start? Table start. Uprange? Low ready facing uprange and turn keeping muzzle within a 3' circle around the shooter. Classifiers, add a sentence for PCC. It is really simple. Derp? Like starting facing up range with a rifle in your hands? No way no how am I even shooting a match that does something that friggin stupid! Interesting, I trained with 100's of people facing up range with rifle's at the low ready and never have I once seen anything "Stupid". Would we ever see a rule like this in USPSA? I highly doubt it, but to put it in prospective, NRA TPC (NRA's 3Gun Match) Allows you to run up range with not only your rifle but your pistol so long as your firearm stays lower then 25* angle with your finger off the trigger. Edited January 30, 2016 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 What's wrong with inserting a chamber flag at ICHD in order to declare Range is Clear? Then carry it muzzle down to where your bag/case/kart is, where it remains until you get the make ready for your next stage. Wouldn't that satisfy the most Fudd-ite of clubs? I know it would be sufficient for mine. How about we just bag/ case the long gun at the line? Just like we do at SC. You could, and that would make sense for the stand and shoot short courses. But at the end of a long COF where you may be on the other side of the stage from where your case/bag is it would slow things down to walk the shooter back to the start to clear him/her. Yer all about time savings and not upgefugging the match flow, right? IMO, it'd go faster if you ULASC-ICHD and insert a chamber flag where ever you finish the stage. That way the RO can call Range is Clear sooner and get to scoring sooner. You then take your inert gun back to wherever your case/bag/kart is and put it away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 What's wrong with inserting a chamber flag at ICHD in order to declare Range is Clear? Then carry it muzzle down to where your bag/case/kart is, where it remains until you get the make ready for your next stage. Wouldn't that satisfy the most Fudd-ite of clubs? I know it would be sufficient for mine. How about we just bag/ case the long gun at the line? Just like we do at SC. You could, and that would make sense for the stand and shoot short courses. But at the end of a long COF where you may be on the other side of the stage from where your case/bag is it would slow things down to walk the shooter back to the start to clear him/her. Yer all about time savings and not upgefugging the match flow, right? IMO, it'd go faster if you ULASC-ICHD and insert a chamber flag where ever you finish the stage. That way the RO can call Range is Clear sooner and get to scoring sooner. You then take your inert gun back to wherever your case/bag/kart is and put it away. This is how I shoot open and usually the score keeper or RO or a friend is more than willing to bring me the bag so I can case at the RO direction. Does not slow down the match. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckB Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 A pistol bag is very easy to carry. A rifle bag is larger, just imagine trying to get someone's pelican case to the end of the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 A pistol bag is very easy to carry. A rifle bag is larger, just imagine trying to get someone's pelican case to the end of the line. That is what soft cases are for. It sounds like people are trying to plan on the absolute worst and expecting that will be every PCC shooter trying to sink the division before it has a chance. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 A pistol bag is very easy to carry. A rifle bag is larger, just imagine trying to get someone's pelican case to the end of the line.Yeah, that could like, make your arms tired man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 We already use a multi-step verification process for ensuring the gun is inert before declaring Range is Clear so people can go down range. Shooter checks, RO checks, and finally the shooter pulls the trigger to drop the hammer (assuming semi-auto). A gun that gone thru all that is a safe gun, no? The chamber flag would be step 4 and is just a visual indicator for everyone else. So IMO once the above has been done, bagged or not bagged shouldn't matter for everyone to go down range and start scoring/resetting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckB Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 A pistol bag is very easy to carry. A rifle bag is larger, just imagine trying to get someone's pelican case to the end of the line. That is what soft cases are for. It sounds like people are trying to plan on the absolute worst and expecting that will be every PCC shooter trying to sink the division before it has a chance. Pat Nope, I'm all for PCC. I just think there are better options then casing and I don't want to add something for someone to complain about. As far as it making my arms tired, I just think there are better things for an RO to do while someone is shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I agree, RO shouldn't have to carry the shooter's bag/case. They need to be unencumbered while running shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) I agree, RO shouldn't have to carry the shooter's bag/case. They need to be unencumbered while running shooters. Wow I must be like a super RO being able to handle a timer and a simple pistol bag on my arm as I run with a shooter. Lol. But a chamber flag is a good option. Pat Edited January 30, 2016 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I agree, RO shouldn't have to carry the shooter's bag/case. They need to be unencumbered while running shooters.Wow I must be like a super RO being able to handle a timer and a simple pistol bag on my arm as I run with a shooter. Lol. But a chamber flag is a good option.Pat You balance a gun case on your arm while running? Cool dude. Pics or it didn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I agree, RO shouldn't have to carry the shooter's bag/case. They need to be unencumbered while running shooters.Wow I must be like a super RO being able to handle a timer and a simple pistol bag on my arm as I run with a shooter. Lol. But a chamber flag is a good option.Pat You balance a gun case on your arm while running? Cool dude. Pics or it didn't happen. Just run the straps through your arm. Not that hard. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I agree, RO shouldn't have to carry the shooter's bag/case. They need to be unencumbered while running shooters.Wow I must be like a super RO being able to handle a timer and a simple pistol bag on my arm as I run with a shooter. Lol. But a chamber flag is a good option.Pat You balance a gun case on your arm while running? Cool dude. Pics or it didn't happen. Just run the straps through your arm. Not that hard.Pat I bow to your ingenuity. But I still want to see you do that with a pelican case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I'd also leave a match that has hands on the gun for an uprange start. There are too many unsafe people here as it is. It's why I don't go to multi-gun matches here. I hope you dont live in a shall issue state. Average Joe with a loaded gun in public is way scarier than anything Ive ever seen at a match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I bow to your ingenuity. But I still want to see you do that with a pelican case. A guy is going to come in with an inexpensive PCC and a pelican case? And no, as an RO I'm not going to be carrying anybody's case while I have the timer. The RO's responsibility is to everyone, for safety, fairness, efficiency. Somebody else is going to have to carry the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I'd also leave a match that has hands on the gun for an uprange start. There are too many unsafe people here as it is. It's why I don't go to multi-gun matches here. I hope you dont live in a shall issue state. Average Joe with a loaded gun in public is way scarier than anything Ive ever seen at a match I do live in a shall-issue state. But Average Joe carrying concealed outside of a match isn't the issue here - that's just a red herring. I'm talking about at matches, where there's supposed to be rules and procedures and oversight. But I've looked at too many rifle muzzles (3-gun matches in two states, local match that has a rifle option in the second run-through) to feel comfortable with long guns. Your logic doesn't change that, it's what I've experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) This is a proverbial square plug in a round hole. The biggest fundamental safety mechanism in USPSA is not handling your gun (specifically having access to the trigger) outside of the COF and the direct supervision of the RO. The only way to accomplish this is bagging/Un bagging the rifle at the line with RO commands. Yeah you're right this will slow things down! It sucks. I'm not ok with some dude I don't know, fingering his AR behind my back trying to case it/ play with it/ look like an operator with it. Nobody can see if his finger is on the trigger. And no, I don't think a chamber flag is a sufficient. If a guy pulls his pistol from the holster when he's not supposed to, it is super obvious and he gets immediately shut down. By allowing a guy to prep/put it away his rifle on his own, we will be allowing non-RO supervised handling of firearms, outside of the safety area. So if a guy muzzles someone casing his rifle is it a DQ or is it ok to muzzle each other now? If it is a DQ, how is it enforced? The RO is busy scoring or running a different shooter. I get it that PCC fans don't care about these details, I'm not hating on PCC, hell I plan on trying it out. I just really think rifles don't work with our established handgun safety procedures, without being cumbersome and totally changing the tempo of our matches. Please....Run PCC separate. Edited January 30, 2016 by Ultimo-Hombre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 You know, even though I'm all for PCC and really want to play with it, I'm starting to realize it's really going to cause problems in a USPSA pistol match. This has been a great thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) You guys would freak at the newest 3 gun concept of a slung rifle is a "dead stick." At the recent Ft. Benning 3 Gun, we started with a slung rifle, and shot the other 2 guns while crawling along a couple low ports, climbing over a wall, crawling under 35 ft. of barb wire and climbing into a Jeep. All the while the rifle was on our backs with the muzzle going every which way. At dinner, we discussed the "dead stick" concept, and most would have been more comfortable with it if the RO had actually checked the chambers prior to the start! Cmon, Kevin, don't give up so easily! The provo. rules aren't even out yet, This will work out. No to Timmy slung rifles, yes to chamber flags, yes to muzzle up at ULASC. If someone violates muzzle discipline, DQ him! This will require modifications to the rules to accommodate PCC handling and start positions, I think everyone realizes that. Edited January 30, 2016 by OPENB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I bow to your ingenuity. But I still want to see you do that with a pelican case. A guy is going to come in with an inexpensive PCC and a pelican case? And no, as an RO I'm not going to be carrying anybody's case while I have the timer. The RO's responsibility is to everyone, for safety, fairness, efficiency. Somebody else is going to have to carry the case. I might........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 That's a 3-gun match with 3-gun rules. We're talking about a pistol match, with established safety rules. I have no doubt we could re-write the rulebook so a person could complete the COF with any number of weapons. I just don't think it is necessary, or a good idea. If PCC is so popular, hold it as a separate match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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