USPSA's Value Proposition

[Jim Norman]

Rules. RO's. Classification, Affiliation with a national organization can/does have an effect on your insurance and alos on whether or not you might even be allowed to run a match.

Hi there Mr. range owner, me and couple o' my buds want to hold a runnin and gunnin match on yer range. We made up siome sort o decent, we think, rules and we got a couple good ol' boys what are gona enforce them and keep everone from doin anythin bad on yer range. (OK, the foregoing is more than a little tongue in cheek an dis meant to be mildly offensive. And on occasion, yeah, I sorta kinda fit the mold myself)

As opposed to

Hi, I would like to run a sanctioned USPSA match, we have a nationally in fact internationally recognized set of rules and we have ROs trained by the organization.

As for the other comment that NRA Membership is a requirement to belong to a club, that has a definite advantage, a 100% NRA club qualifies for insurance at decent rates.

If you approached me, I know which one would get a shot at using my range.

[Full mag]

My issue is with how uspsa supports match directors and or clubs. The only time I hear from them is when the want something, never to say we just want to give a little thanks for what you guys do. I recently got a email stating I need to ask them for a for approval to reaffiliate because I didn't make their set amount of matches due to rain and also I missed a match because no one else wanted to run it when I couldn't be there. I have a hard time being told something like that when I send them money every month, which basically helps pay their salaries. I just feel they could do a better job supporting those who support them. I know everyone will have their opinions but I have been doing this for many years and have seen many people that help get burned out from lack of support. I don't charge any different if you are a member or not, $20 for 6 stages, I feel people should get the most shooting for the travel time and money they spend.

[CHA-LEE]

My issue is with how uspsa supports match directors and or clubs. The only time I hear from them is when the want something, never to say we just want to give a little thanks for what you guys do. I recently got a email stating I need to ask them for a for approval to reaffiliate because I didn't make their set amount of matches due to rain and also I missed a match because no one else wanted to run it when I couldn't be there. I have a hard time being told something like that when I send them money every month, which basically helps pay their salaries. I just feel they could do a better job supporting those who support them. I know everyone will have their opinions but I have been doing this for many years and have seen many people that help get burned out from lack of support. I don't charge any different if you are a member or not, $20 for 6 stages, I feel people should get the most shooting for the travel time and money they spend.

+1

[ericridebike]

Here's my perspective as a new USPSA member. I've been a shooter for a long time, but this is my first year as a USPSA shooter and member. I am still learning all the ins and outs of the sport so to me the Front Sight Magazine is actually interesting and educational. I also like the classification system as a way of tracking my progress. Sure, it seems USPSA has it's issues as most everything does, but to me at this point even if all I get out of them is the magazine and classification system it's worth the membership fee. Maybe if I had been a member for a long time those things might not mean a lot to me. I can see how the magazine probably doesn't contain a lot of content that your average GM would find useful. Might be cool to have an option to opt out of the magazine for a reduced membership fee.

[NMBOpen]

That is available: Associate member, everything but the magazine.

[ericridebike]

That is available: Associate member, everything but the magazine.

Cool. Good to know. Thanks.

[Nimitz]

I would see nothing wrong with requiring USPSA membership to shoot a USPSA match or significantly raising the fees collected for non members shooting matches which should force clubs to charge a lot higher match fee for nonmembers. At my club you cannot be a member (of the club) without joining the NRA, period. Same should go for USPSA. You like shooting USPSA matches? Great, you get to shoot your 1st one without membership, then you must join ...

The flip side of course is that USPSA needs to step up as well and there have been some good suggestions here which I hope those who suggested them will take 2 mins and email them to Mike foley ...

I certainly wouldn't want to be a member of your range then....

Politics aside, isn't that what IDPA does? Do we have any IDPA shooters that can chime in on how it works over there? I wouldn't be opposed to having your first one or 2 be freebies then after that you have to join.

The value I see (as what I would call a pretty normal competitor, I mostly shoot locals and a couple L2, maybe 1 L3 next year) is the classification system, the rules, and the RO's. Most notably the classification system, which to me seems like it could be way better.

What is keeping them from running the classifier system weekly? Daily, even? It's a big computer program that takes time to run, but even big statical analysis programs generally only take minutes to hours, just run it over night! (Not to mention that having a smaller stack of scores that have to be run would speed up the program)

I don't care about the magazine so I get the cheaper membership and save myself a couple extra bucks.

I am not a match director, but it seems like having a source for cheaper steel available for clubs would definitely be at least some incentive at the club level. I know at my home range we use pretty much every popper every match.

You have a problem with the NRA?

[Nimitz]

I would see nothing wrong with requiring USPSA membership to shoot a USPSA match or significantly raising the fees collected for non members shooting matches which should force clubs to charge a lot higher match fee for nonmembers. At my club you cannot be a member (of the club) without joining the NRA, period. Same should go for USPSA. You like shooting USPSA matches? Great, you get to shoot your 1st one without membership, then you must join ...

The flip side of course is that USPSA needs to step up as well and there have been some good suggestions here which I hope those who suggested them will take 2 mins and email them to Mike foley ...

I certainly wouldn't want to be a member of your range then....

Politics aside, isn't that what IDPA does? Do we have any IDPA shooters that can chime in on how it works over there? I wouldn't be opposed to having your first one or 2 be freebies then after that you have to join.

The value I see (as what I would call a pretty normal competitor, I mostly shoot locals and a couple L2, maybe 1 L3 next year) is the classification system, the rules, and the RO's. Most notably the classification system, which to me seems like it could be way better.

What is keeping them from running the classifier system weekly? Daily, even? It's a big computer program that takes time to run, but even big statical analysis programs generally only take minutes to hours, just run it over night! (Not to mention that having a smaller stack of scores that have to be run would speed up the program)

I don't care about the magazine so I get the cheaper membership and save myself a couple extra bucks.

I am not a match director, but it seems like having a source for cheaper steel available for clubs would definitely be at least some incentive at the club level. I know at my home range we use pretty much every popper every match.

.....".. Edited November 26, 2015 by Nimitz

[Jadeslade]

Rules, classification, ability to enter matches in a lot of places, Range Officers. But most of all membership in the most elite of all shooting shoots, because it is the most difficult, with a proven track record of safety, good competition, great shooters, and operating on the cutting edge of technology, shooting, and sport.

[d_striker]

Slight thread drift...

you know how some clubs will run a point series for a year. Each competitor earns so many odd points for each match they attend, or how high they place.

Maybe it would be worthwhile for USPSA HQ to consider something like for clubs...maybe like a sales commission...at the end of the year, the club wins either cash back, or gets props like Texas stars or full size poppers.

Just throwing that out there as an idea.

Kim promised something like this over a year ago. Like almost all of her great ideas, they never came to fruition.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190081&p=2102193

There's a lot of good ideas in there....Why didn't they get implemented? Especially the weekly classifier update:

Quicker Classification Updates

The move to the new scoring system has a big advantage beyond convenience. It allows us to calculate

member classifications virtually immediately upon submission. No more waiting all month to see if the

classifier you shot is going to move you up – you will know as soon as it is submitted. This has been a

major request from USPSA membership and we have worked hard to develop a good way to accomplish

it.

In order to avoid the complications of classification changing in the middle of a major match the current

plan is to have the classifications become effective once per week.

[9x45]

Rules. RO's. Classification, Affiliation with a national organization can/does have an effect on your insurance and alos on whether or not you might even be allowed to run a match.

Hi there Mr. range owner, me and couple o' my buds want to hold a runnin and gunnin match on yer range. We made up siome sort o decent, we think, rules and we got a couple good ol' boys what are gona enforce them and keep everone from doin anythin bad on yer range. (OK, the foregoing is more than a little tongue in cheek an dis meant to be mildly offensive. And on occasion, yeah, I sorta kinda fit the mold myself)

As opposed to

Hi, I would like to run a sanctioned USPSA match, we have a nationally in fact internationally recognized set of rules and we have ROs trained by the organization.

Yup, and you know the first credential you put to the club officers and range owner is event liability insurance. That is to protect your staff, the club and the owners, outlaw match, or not.

[9x45]

Chills "The same way I shot an IDPA style match every Tuesday night all through 2006 and most of 2007."

What you quoted are just range rules. But you are still knocking off the sanctioned organization. I ran an official IDPA club from March 98 thru June 05. If you want to run a IDPA style match, cover, concealment, tactical/sequential engagement, etc, and use their rules and targets, then join up, if you don't, then make up your own rules/divisions/classification system and scoring.

[Chills1994]

Why?

On a slightly different note, there are guys at my old "home range" who run a weekly practice session in like May, June, July, August, September, when the sun sets later. Some of the guys are IDPA'ers, and some of the guys are strictly USPSA'ers.

In my mind, it doesn't seem too much different than some dudes having a "pick up" game of basketable at the local park.

I'm sure all those guys on the basketball court know what traveling is and they call it on each other.

EDIT: all those guys at my old home range at these evening practice sessions are members of that range. There is an electric key card to get in and out of the gate. That range requires NRA membership for all its members (as I am sure they get some sort of deal on their insurance).

EDIT #2: at the Tuesday night IDPA style matches I shot, there were maybe 10 to 30 people. We never felt the need for a classification system.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Chills1994

[Gooldylocks]

I would see nothing wrong with requiring USPSA membership to shoot a USPSA match or significantly raising the fees collected for non members shooting matches which should force clubs to charge a lot higher match fee for nonmembers. At my club you cannot be a member (of the club) without joining the NRA, period. Same should go for USPSA. You like shooting USPSA matches? Great, you get to shoot your 1st one without membership, then you must join ...

The flip side of course is that USPSA needs to step up as well and there have been some good suggestions here which I hope those who suggested them will take 2 mins and email them to Mike foley ...

I certainly wouldn't want to be a member of your range then....

Politics aside, isn't that what IDPA does? Do we have any IDPA shooters that can chime in on how it works over there? I wouldn't be opposed to having your first one or 2 be freebies then after that you have to join.

The value I see (as what I would call a pretty normal competitor, I mostly shoot locals and a couple L2, maybe 1 L3 next year) is the classification system, the rules, and the RO's. Most notably the classification system, which to me seems like it could be way better.

What is keeping them from running the classifier system weekly? Daily, even? It's a big computer program that takes time to run, but even big statical analysis programs generally only take minutes to hours, just run it over night! (Not to mention that having a smaller stack of scores that have to be run would speed up the program)

I don't care about the magazine so I get the cheaper membership and save myself a couple extra bucks.

I am not a match director, but it seems like having a source for cheaper steel available for clubs would definitely be at least some incentive at the club level. I know at my home range we use pretty much every popper every match.

You have a problem with the NRA?

Politics

Policy and political discussions or debates of any kind - even if you consider your opinions to be "facts" - are not welcome anywhere in the forum....

..........

• This Government vs That Government

• Gun Control Issues

My emphasis added. Not gonna get into it here with you.

[ctay]

Why?

On a slightly different note, there are guys at my old "home range" who run a weekly practice session in like May, June, July, August, September, when the sun sets later. Some of the guys are IDPA'ers, and some of the guys are strictly USPSA'ers.

In my mind, it doesn't seem too much different than some dudes having a "pick up" game of basketable at the local park.

I'm sure all those guys on the basketball court know what traveling is and they call it on each other.

EDIT: all those guys at my old home range at these evening practice sessions are members of that range. There is an electric key card to get in and out of the gate. That range requires NRA membership for all its members (as I am sure they get some sort of deal on their insurance).

EDIT #2: at the Tuesday night IDPA style matches I shot, there were maybe 10 to 30 people. We never felt the need for a classification system.

A range I belong to has an "action pistol" match twice a week. It can be fun but safety and structure are very much lacking because there is no official rule set.

It does serve a purpose, for whatever reason there is a contingent of people that are intimidated by USPSA. "Too strict rules" "too hard stages" or just the competition is too stiff.

However, once somebody has shot a few action pistol matches there is a portion that wants to see what else is out there. That is exactly how I got into USPSA. I shot some action pistol, did well, and someone suggested I try USPSA. Now I'm hooked and I basically never shoot action pistol. USPSA had the competition and structure I was looking for.

[Thomas H]

Scott wrote:
A separate question is why should a club choose to affiliate, or continue it's affiliation, with the USPSA? Our section has lost one club already in 2015 and most likely lose another. Both clubs still run matches they could not justify the expense of affiliation and activity fees. Is this a common trend else where? If so how do we change this?

Cha-lee wrote:
The bigger problem I see is there being near zero value in being an affiliated club. Annual club affiliation fee is $50, then classifier and mission count fee's are $3 per shooter per match. If you host 10 club matches a year with an average of 50 shooters that is $1550 in fee's paid to USPSA for what in return? The clubs only value in being USPSA affiliated is a Rule set, Classifiers, ability to market USPSA sanctioned events, and some really crappy scoring tools (EzWinScore and Online Squading if you host a Level 2 or above Match). As the original poster mentioned a club could NOT be USPSA affiliated and basically save themselves $1500 a year right off the top.

As people have said: If your club isn't affiliated, you can't call it USPSA, (and even though some people seem to think so, you aren't supposed to call it "USPSA-like") and you can't use the USPSA ruleset. And as people have already stated, making up your own ruleset generally works out to something that turns into "local rules" that get subjective depending on who is running the timer. No certified ROs (and yes, I'm aware that you don't have to have certified ROs at level I matches, but since I think that there is why most clubs have stupid rules issues at a local level, I'm glad our club only lets people run the timer if they are a certified RO), no understanding of what is and isn't allowed (how many people running "action-pistol-but-not-USPSA" matches have a full ruleset available on their website so people know the rules going in?)...

...being a USPSA-affiliated club gives structure. Everyone knows the rules going in, everyone knows what their recourse is given issues and difficulties, and you get support in terms of running matches according to the rules. Advertising your club's match as a "USPSA match" automatically tells people exactly what you do, and that gets more people into it.

Now: Do I think that USPSA HQ should do more for clubs? Sure. Obviously. They think so too, as they've talked about what amazing things they will be doing to give back to the clubs. Of course, they haven't done any of those things, but that is a HQ worker issue, not an organizational issue. (At least, not yet, imo.)

I know quite a few people who don't bother to be members of USPSA. Not really sure why, because it isn't like it costs much, but that's okay. On the other hand, since our club happens to often host our Sectional match, many new shooters at our club each year immediately join USPSA after their second match or so, so they can shoot the Sectional. Again, in places where the sectional is far away, that obviously can be different.

Like anything: some people spend a little time on their hobbies. Some spend more. For people only interested in shooting every once in awhile in a social atmosphere, not being a member makes sense. For people who want more in their hobby, joining makes sense as it gets you more and you can do more. The "what's it worth to be a member" thing really seems obvious to me, actually.

The club thing, though? You want to kill a club (or worse yet, have it survive but only as an ol-boys-club-with-local-rules) just unaffiliate and run your own "action shooting matches that aren't USPSA" with your own ruleset.

I'm rather hoping that in the next year, USPSA HQ will start to follow through on some of their ideas of how to improve things for clubs. A number of things they've said sound like great ideas. They just need to actually DO what they have said.

[ericridebike]

Why?

On a slightly different note, there are guys at my old "home range" who run a weekly practice session in like May, June, July, August, September, when the sun sets later. Some of the guys are IDPA'ers, and some of the guys are strictly USPSA'ers.

In my mind, it doesn't seem too much different than some dudes having a "pick up" game of basketable at the local park.

I'm sure all those guys on the basketball court know what traveling is and they call it on each other.

EDIT: all those guys at my old home range at these evening practice sessions are members of that range. There is an electric key card to get in and out of the gate. That range requires NRA membership for all its members (as I am sure they get some sort of deal on their insurance).

EDIT #2: at the Tuesday night IDPA style matches I shot, there were maybe 10 to 30 people. We never felt the need for a classification system.

A range I belong to has an "action pistol" match twice a week. It can be fun but safety and structure are very much lacking because there is no official rule set.

It does serve a purpose, for whatever reason there is a contingent of people that are intimidated by USPSA. "Too strict rules" "too hard stages" or just the competition is too stiff.

However, once somebody has shot a few action pistol matches there is a portion that wants to see what else is out there. That is exactly how I got into USPSA. I shot some action pistol, did well, and someone suggested I try USPSA. Now I'm hooked and I basically never shoot action pistol. USPSA had the competition and structure I was looking for.

I started kind of like that too, except I did some IDPA in addition to outlaw action pistol. For some reason I was kind of intimidated by the idea of shooting USPSA. I think that was in part to most of the stereotypical pictures I would see of USPSA shooters wearing fancy jerseys and shooting high dollar open "race" guns. I finally went to my first USPSA match and was instantly hooked. I really regret not trying it a lot sooner.

[Nimitz]

I find it interesting that a lot of clubs which don't want to be affiliated and run sanctioned matches like to run 'USPSA-Like" matches and use most USPSA rules & format & structure .... apparently these Clubs like a lot of things that USPSA has provided for them but they just don't want to have to pay for it ...

If you're not going to run sanctioned matches then you shouldn't be using "USPSA", "IDPA", Steel Challenge or any other sanctioned body name in your advertising or explanation of your match. Go make up your own rules and call it what it is: Billy Bob's Action Shoot'em Up Match ...

[Just4FunLP]

Go to google and type in USPSA. I find a nice website, a place to download rules, equipment specific to the sport, YouTube videos, books, discussion forums, etc, etc. Its a great sport and a living organization that holds regular elections. I think it's great. I can look up anyone I want and see how they're shooting. If I get knocked out of placing in a big match by a guy, I can go online and see he's actually two classes ahead of me in another division, and been doing it five years longer an I have. That's pretty cool. We can have discussions on techniques,strategies, and equipment that are common from Florida to Washington.

It's extremely cool, but like just about anything out there, once you get deeply rooted in the day to day operations and have been working in the trenches for years and years the cool factor fades. I think it's about bringing in a steady flow of new shooters, and to do that the USPSA label is important.

The reason I got involved is because I wanted a home defense gun. While I was shopping around I ran into discussions about competition guns. This led me to various shooting sports websites and USPSA seemed to be the one with the right attitude for me. I just love to shoot. I think self defense is important and all, but I really don't want to talk about it, and I don't really want to be around people that fixate on that stuff. USPSA is healthy, fun sport, that anyone at any level can enjoy and feel proud to be a member.

When I started I bought one gun. I started shooting and wore it out practicing for and shooting USPSA matches, now it's going into retirement and I'm breaking in a new one. I'm can't afford to shoot and be a gun collector. I go out and practice every weekend and shoot 500 rounds. If it wasn't for the sport, what would be the point? I unexpectedly received my B card this year, and I can't tell you how proud I am. And I know if I keep working I can probably make A class. Other than that card I don't really have much to show for it, but that's ok, because I'm having a great time, and proud to be participating in a competitive sport with a lot of great people. And on top of all that, the organization I shoot with is so friendly and welcoming, you don't even need to be a member to participate. That's the organization I want to shoot with.

The membership fee isn't even worth talking about.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Just4FunLP

[Hi-Power Jack]

Rules? Safety?

I shot an IDPA match few years ago, and after I shot I went over to the RO

and apologized - said I looked down, and my gun was still in my holster,

but it was fully loaded, cocked and locked.

He said, "don't worry Jack, we're running a Hot Range today". :bow:

Don't recall that anyone got hurt .... Just sayin' .

[TJART]

Excellent topic.

I suffered an injury that no longer allowed me to golf. I needed another hobby and literally jumped into USPSA overnight (well, 10 days to be precise ). Picked up a CZ, ordered all the gear from Amazon, and... purchased a USPSA membership; I thought I NEEDED it to shoot (not enough research on my part about shooting a match). My local club puts on 28 matches a year, of which, 4 are steel challenges. $35 non-member, $25 member.

If I had it to do over again, I would have save my money and buy ammo to practice with, instead of a USPSA annual membership. What does my membership get me in a way that benefits me or provides me some sort of service other than seeing the same PractisSores my club uploads?

My very first match, I shot with six other guys; three open, one SS, and two production. Only three had USPSA numbers and the others were just there to shoot - regulars, though. It seemed to me, in my observation/opinion, they only had classifications to "support the sport." The comradery was there, regardless. A couple of guys asked my experience and gave me some great advice/pointers heading into, and after stages. No one asked my classification or registration number (except at registration).

I finished 26/48 overall, combined, and had a great time. I don't see how my experience would have been any different if I was a non-member. I think USPSA needs to find a legitimate reason for existence.

Edit: I read a few comments about having a website to go to, rule download, etc. Here is a realistic fact of my generation; the only research we do (that's not journalistic citations), are YOUTUBE. We find gear, rules, FPS, etc... basically everything we need to know about USPSA. The only reason I went to the USPSA website was to get the phone number so I could get my reg. number the night before a match.

Edited November 27, 2015 by TJART

[Nimitz]

Rules? Safety?

I shot an IDPA match few years ago, and after I shot I went over to the RO

and apologized - said I looked down, and my gun was still in my holster,

but it was fully loaded, cocked and locked.

He said, "don't worry Jack, we're running a Hot Range today". :bow:

Don't recall that anyone got hurt .... Just sayin' .

The exception doesn't prove the rule .... Just because you found one RO who doesn't know what he's doing doesn't mean the entire national organization is not worth the price of membership ...

[Nimitz]

Excellent topic.

I suffered an injury that no longer allowed me to golf. I needed another hobby and literally jumped into USPSA overnight (well, 10 days to be precise ). Picked up a CZ, ordered all the gear from Amazon, and... purchased a USPSA membership; I thought I NEEDED it to shoot (not enough research on my part about shooting a match). My local club puts on 28 matches a year, of which, 4 are steel challenges. $35 non-member, $25 member.

If I had it to do over again, I would have save my money and buy ammo to practice with, instead of a USPSA annual membership. What does my membership get me in a way that benefits me or provides me some sort of service other than seeing the same PractisSores my club uploads?

My very first match, I shot with six other guys; three open, one SS, and two production. Only three had USPSA numbers and the others were just there to shoot - regulars, though. It seemed to me, in my observation/opinion, they only had classifications to "support the sport." The comradery was there, regardless. A couple of guys asked my experience and gave me some great advice/pointers heading into, and after stages. No one asked my classification or registration number (except at registration).

I finished 26/48 overall, combined, and had a great time. I don't see how my experience would have been any different if I was a non-member. I think USPSA needs to find a legitimate reason for existence.

Edit: I read a few comments about having a website to go to, rule download, etc. Here is a realistic fact of my generation; the only research we do (that's not journalistic citations), are YOUTUBE. We find gear, rules, FPS, etc... basically everything we need to know about USPSA. The only reason I went to the USPSA website was to get the phone number so I could get my reg. number the night before a match.

Sounds like you should just go shoot outlaw matches so you don't have to worry having a standard set of rules, trained and certified ROs to look after your safety, a classification system enabling you to compare yourself to anyone else in the country ... Etc

If you're just a casual shooter and not serious about competition I'm not as hard over about individuals being members as long as sanctioned matches charge more for non members to shoot. I'm much more concerned bout clubs not being affiliated but then run 'USPSA-like' matches, effectively stealing the intellectual property of USPSA ....

[Sarge]

Can't I just say I like to belong without 5 paragraphs of justification? Can't you just say you don't want to belong without doing the same 5 paragraphs? And why does it always have to be,"what's in it for me?" Like somebody said, it's $40. You'll spend that much on wings and a few beers for lunch without question.

If you want to join, join. If you don't, don't.

[atbarr]

Can't I just say I like to belong without 5 paragraphs of justification? Can't you just say you don't want to belong without doing the same 5 paragraphs? And why does it always have to be,"what's in it for me?" Like somebody said, it's $40. You'll spend that much on wings and a few beers for lunch without question.

If you want to join, join. If you don't, don't.

Some people just like to see themselves in a thread. It doesn't matter what was wrote, it had been already been written in many, many posts.