RO 's wrong call ?

[p7fl]

It is Monday so the usual series of calls come up.

This one confuses me. Level 1 match, nothing major at stake.

I am the shooter with a Single Stack in 45 making nice big holes. Being run by a quality shooter, LEO trainer and friend.

Stage is mostly barrels and mesh. We finish, check the scoring and he tells me an “A” went full diameter thru a barrel and is scored a Mike.

I am a 15 year CRO.

My response is that he should have been looking at the gun not the hit. The scorekeeper had his nose in the tablet and didn’t see. Went to the MD and his response was a “glancing” hit on the barrel would score but a “full diameter” is a miss.

How is this correctly viewed? Was the RO wrong for making the call?

What is the applied rule.

Thanks in advance.

jon

[Gary Stevens]

All props are hardcover unless specified otherwise. Full diameter hits through hard cover will not count. Sometimes the clock RO is in a position to see both gun and target. Sounds ok to me.

[d_striker]

I would have asked to seen the hole on the barrel. If the barrel has a bunch of un-repaired full diameter AND partial strikes in the vicinity of where the alleged strike is, I'm calling BS on the RO being able to determine 100% which one was mine.

Edited July 6, 2015 by d_striker

[ktm300]

Which one made the call, the scoring or clock RO? If it was the guy on the clock, you seem to think he has a clue so why do you doubt his call?

I look at the gun as hard as anyone but there are time when I can see both the gun and the targets.

What did the hole look like?

[MarkCO]

If you are a 15 year USPSA CRO, you should have already known that what Gary posted in #2.

7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master).

[PKT1106]

As a 15 year CRO, you should know there are times when the shooters orientation to the target allows the RO to get a view of the gun and some of the area down range. A dead giveaway for me to check is if I hear the familiar hollow sound of the barrel being shot.

[motosapiens]

At a level 1 match, I make barrel/hardcover calls based on how the hole in the target looks. Wacked shape hole with no grease ring next to a barrel is usually a mike.

At a major match, we paint the barrel, and touch it up after every hit.

Without being there, it sounds like the RO made the right call.

[Sarge]

I watch the gun as much as needed but I also transition to targets as needed. Shooting near bbls or mesh walls I try to position myself to see where the round goes. If a shooter is standing and shooting to gun focus is not as critical as during a reload, malfunction or movement. Many times I have eliminated bad call arguments by knowing for a fact a shooter missed a target on a second shot. You know, those targets at 5 feet that there is no way that's a mike it must be a double. If I see them draw and shoot over the shoulder of the target in a hurry it makes for a short debate

[Corey]

Without being there, it sounds like the right call was made. Like Moto said, at a level 1, clubs may not have the luxury to paste/cover every hole in a wall or barrel. I've called numerous Mikes on targets where one bullet was a nice clean hole with grease ring around it and the one next to it was a torn jagged hole with no grease and obviously was obstructed somehow (like the barrel right in front of the target). I've had numerous Mikes like that called on me as well. At a Lvl 2 or higher, I would expect props to be clean and if there is a hole made by a shooter that it be covered somehow before the next shooter.

[d_striker]

Most of the RO's at the clubs around here do it the way Moto and Corey explained for L1 matches. And that's how I generally would do it if I was the RO at a L1 match.

I get it, it's a club match and all, but I think it's still a little sloppy. As a spectator in the peanut gallery, I've seen a bullet go full diameter through a 2x4 and still leave a slight grease ring scored as a hit. I've also seen a partial on the same 2x4 tumble into the target and not leave a grease ring scored as a miss.

[9x45]

How big was the rock on the prize table that day? Any round that passes thru hard cover or props is a miss. And it's quite likely the RO saw both the gun, the barrel and the hit.

[ktm300]

No shoots, or hard cover that is truly hard (think steel plate), where there is a chance to shoot hard cover go a long way to solving the "is it a hit" question.

Last stage I ran at the Florida Open there were no-shoots on most every piece of hard cover you could shoot through, and hit a target. Made the calls quick and consistent. Before we took off to score the stage we would just take a quick look at the no-shoots to see if any were hit.

[MarkCO]

I get it, it's a club match and all, but I think it's still a little sloppy. As a spectator in the peanut gallery, I've seen a bullet go full diameter through a 2x4 and still leave a slight grease ring scored as a hit. I've also seen a partial on the same 2x4 tumble into the target and not leave a grease ring scored as a miss.

Or maybe you got the bullets mixed up in flight.

[High Lord Gomer]

To avoid those situations at our monthly matches part of our standard stage briefing is, "Barrels are soft cover but bullets must leave recognizable arc to score."

[ktm300]

To avoid those situations at our monthly matches part of our standard stage briefing is, "Barrels are soft cover but bullets must leave recognizable arc to score."

That works, but sometimes it takes forever to score the target.

[MarkCO]

To avoid those situations at our monthly matches part of our standard stage briefing is, "Barrels are soft cover but bullets must leave recognizable arc to score."

So scoring "arcs" are RO opinion?

Better is to just stop using barrels as vision barriers close to targets. They are unsafe due to ricochets and come backers. Old pallets or plywood with no-shoots on them, or real steel if far enough away are safer and less subjective.

Yeah, I know people have been "using plastic barrels for years as vision barriers" but that does not mean they are safe nor that we can not improve.

[d_striker]

I get it, it's a club match and all, but I think it's still a little sloppy. As a spectator in the peanut gallery, I've seen a bullet go full diameter through a 2x4 and still leave a slight grease ring scored as a hit. I've also seen a partial on the same 2x4 tumble into the target and not leave a grease ring scored as a miss.

Or maybe you got the bullets mixed up in flight.

I was referring to two different shooters on the same stage. But anything's possible!

Which is sort of my point. I don't think me or the RO could say with 100% certainty what happened. But as a neutral party, I just keep my mouth shut and let the RO do their thing. Ultimately, it's their call and then the RM if it gets that far.

I agree that no shoots on those hard cover bullet traps solve most of the ambiguity and definitely keeps things moving.

Edited July 6, 2015 by d_striker

[RenoShooter]

If they aren't painting or repairing barrels or other hard cover as they get hit, all the shooter has to say is, "prove it." It would be scored a hit. It doesn't matter what the RO thinks he/she saw, if you showed me a barrel that looked like swiss cheese with bullet holes all through it I would ask to be shown the one that I did. No RO could say with 100% certainty unless it was the only hole. The only thing the RO could do with 100% certainty is score the hit. All the more reason to use no-shoots at level 1 matches to prevent this situation from happening in the first place.

[Flatland Shooter]

Playing the Devil's advocate:

Why should the shooter get the benefit of the doubt just because the holes in the barrel were not properly marked or taped?

Its the squads responsibility to tape and set steel.

[d_striker]

This scenario, of un-repaired HC, came up at an RO class I took a few weeks back. I believe the instructor said that since a call could not be made verifiably, hit or miss, the correct call was reshoot.

[MarkCO]

If they aren't painting or repairing barrels or other hard cover as they get hit, all the shooter has to say is, "prove it." It would be scored a hit. It doesn't matter what the RO thinks he/she saw, if you showed me a barrel that looked like swiss cheese with bullet holes all through it I would ask to be shown the one that I did. No RO could say with 100% certainty unless it was the only hole. The only thing the RO could do with 100% certainty is score the hit.

In this case, the "they" is also the shooter who is a squad memeber at a local match who should be re-setting, and as a 15 year CRO should either accept his complicit laziness w.r.t. taping barrels or tape them before his run if it is that big of a deal to him. I know I have taken the time to patch over a dozen holes in barrels and walls at local ,matches when the prior squad was too lazy to do it right.

If the RO is 100% certain he saw what he saw, the call should stand. Any RM worth his salt is going to back the RO when the RO is 100% certain and also score it as a hit if the evidence is contrary or the RO is not 100%. At best, a reshoot. When, as a competitor, you set up an adversarial atmosphere with the RO, not only is it poor sportsmanship, it can come back to bite you.

When the shooter is a good sport, he will take the shots or misses he earned and not try to weasel behind the rulebook, same goes with match staff. Have some integrity and score the targets right and accept the shots you make or get out of the sport!

All the more reason to use no-shoots at level 1 matches to prevent this situation from happening in the first place.

Yes!

Edited July 6, 2015 by MarkCO

[gng4life]

Jon, I believe you asked for the rule and it is 9.1.6.1.

Also, did you inspect the target before it was patched?

[d_striker]

If they aren't painting or repairing barrels or other hard cover as they get hit, all the shooter has to say is, "prove it." It would be scored a hit. It doesn't matter what the RO thinks he/she saw, if you showed me a barrel that looked like swiss cheese with bullet holes all through it I would ask to be shown the one that I did. No RO could say with 100% certainty unless it was the only hole. The only thing the RO could do with 100% certainty is score the hit.

In this case, the "they" is also the shooter who is a squad memeber at a local match who should be re-setting, and as a 15 year CRO should either accept his complicit laziness w.r.t. taping barrels or tape them before his run if it is that big of a deal to him. I know I have taken the time to patch over a dozen holes in barrels and walls at local ,matches when the prior squad was too lazy to do it right.

If the RO is 100% certain he saw what he saw, the call should stand. Any RM worth his salt is going to back the RO when the RO is 100% certain and also score it as a hit if the evidence is contrary or the RO is not 100%. At best, a reshoot. When, as a competitor, you set up an adversarial atmosphere with the RO, not only is it poor sportsmanship, it can come back to bite you.

When the shooter is a good sport, he will take the shots or misses he earned and not try to weasel behind the rulebook, same goes with match staff. Have some integrity and score the targets right and accept the shots you make or get out of the sport!

At a L1 match in this scenario, if the RO can look me in the eye and say that he/she is 100% certain that it's a mike, I'll accept the call. I'm the first to admit that it's a miss if I'm certain what happened and I know I earned it.

It's the situations where speculation is used to make a call that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Edited July 6, 2015 by d_striker

[MarkCO]

At a L1 match in this scenario, if the RO can look me in the eye and say that he/she is 100% certain that it's a mike, I'll accept the call. I'm the first to admit that it's a miss if I'm certain what happened and I know I earned it.

It's the situations where speculation is used to make a call that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

It should be that way at every match, at every level. I will back my staff all the way when they are certain. But as a RM, when I hear, "I think I saw" or "I thought I saw" from a stage RO, my ruling is a reshoot A reshoot is can be better or worse, but if there is not 100% certainty of the score, a reshoot should occur.

[terrydoc]

So we will accept that a RO saw you DQ but not drill some hard cover?