9 Major vs 38 thread # 2,927,642

[BeerBaron]

I'm actually glad this was posted as its timely for me too. I'm about to buy a 2011 open gun. Currently shooting one of those funny tanfoglio's with all the holes (yes 38 super).

Like Dan I'm in a place where everyone picks up your brass but I still loose at least 20% of my super. 9mm is by far cheaper to get.

I also really want to like the 9mm but feel perhaps there is some small benefit in the load flexibility super offers.

I'm on the fence and its piercing me in the soft bits as at the moment im 50/50 on the new gun being super or 9. Maybe I have to buy one each?

[Foxbat]

As someone had already mentioned, other things in the gun will more than easily swamp the differences between the calibers. I think, for examples, that going from a plastic grip to a steel one, or from one type sight to another, the comp design, etc, etc, will make a far more pronounced effect on your shooting than that extra 4mm in case length.

Have you figured out ALL of those other things?

[MikeRush]

As someone had already mentioned, other things in the gun will more than easily swamp the differences between the calibers. I think, for examples, that going from a plastic grip to a steel one, or from one type sight to another, the comp design, etc, etc, will make a far more pronounced effect on your shooting than that extra 4mm in case length.

Have you figured out ALL of those other things?

Not being facetious, or argumentative.

What is the recipe, and why have no top GMs figured it out?

I agree that 4mm of case length shouldn't be that important. In practice it seems like it is. Maybe I just haven't tried the right 9 yet, which is why I am asking.

I'd love to build 2 guns, each optimized for caliber and run a slew of drills to compare them. I don't have the resources for that at the moment. I'd love to try a 9 that is set up right. The best 9 I've shot felt OK, like, maybe I could shoot this and not bend over to pick up brass, I guess. Not "this is awesome!".

I guess I'm a communist sheep for wanting to lean on the experience of the super squad. I figured they have tried a variety of guns and settled on what works for them. It seems like the majority shoot a 5-5.4" 38 sc with a few holes. I'm open to the idea of a 9, I just want to try one that changes my mind.

From high speed video it looks like Kyle Riojas' stroked Akai 9 is pretty flat and he does well with it. Any other configurations? I know video or appearance can be deceptive, and agree 100% with BrianATL that the timer doesn't lie. Because I don't want to waste time having a bunch of guns built and chasing down loads I'm letting major match RO timers work for me.

Maybe my smith can talk me out of that, and into a 9? I'll try.

[Foxbat]

I worked for a while with a great gunsmith, who is also a GM, had been in this sport from its beginning, so I would consider him a VERY good reference. He went through the whole nine yards, as the sport developed, and finally settled on 9mm shorties. That is what he shoots, and likes to build for the others.

So here's yet another bifurcation point for you - a shorty, or full size. Like I said - too many other important elements, that far outweigh the caliber choice, in my view.

[lcs]

Unless you can't afford the brass, 38 SuperComp. Its more reliable. When you see an open gun choke, its usually a 9 or a super. Others are welcome to contrary opinions. At the M/GM level, one choke and you've usually lost the match.

As you've already observed, most of the top shooters use SuperComp. Don't swim upstream.

My opinion. Take it for what its worth.

Second that. 38SC only way to go versus 38S.

[lcs]

As someone had already mentioned, other things in the gun will more than easily swamp the differences between the calibers. I think, for examples, that going from a plastic grip to a steel one, or from one type sight to another, the comp design, etc, etc, will make a far more pronounced effect on your shooting than that extra 4mm in case length.

Have you figured out ALL of those other things?

Not being facetious, or argumentative.

What is the recipe, and why have no top GMs figured it out?

I agree that 4mm of case length shouldn't be that important. In practice it seems like it is. Maybe I just haven't tried the right 9 yet, which is why I am asking.

I'd love to build 2 guns, each optimized for caliber and run a slew of drills to compare them. I don't have the resources for that at the moment. I'd love to try a 9 that is set up right. The best 9 I've shot felt OK, like, maybe I could shoot this and not bend over to pick up brass, I guess. Not "this is awesome!".

I guess I'm a communist sheep for wanting to lean on the experience of the super squad. I figured they have tried a variety of guns and settled on what works for them. It seems like the majority shoot a 5-5.4" 38 sc with a few holes. I'm open to the idea of a 9, I just want to try one that changes my mind.

From high speed video it looks like Kyle Riojas' stroked Akai 9 is pretty flat and he does well with it. Any other configurations? I know video or appearance can be deceptive, and agree 100% with BrianATL that the timer doesn't lie. Because I don't want to waste time having a bunch of guns built and chasing down loads I'm letting major match RO timers work for me.

Maybe my smith can talk me out of that, and into a 9? I'll try.

You don't have to have a bunch of guns. Just one 38SC and a 9 barrel/comp fitted to the same slide. Extractor/ejector will work for both. The problem with 9 major is EJECTION.

If you select the conventional upright mount, don't waste your money on 9. The 9 ejection pattern is radically different than 38SC. An AFTEC will work for both, but you will suffer a lot trying to get a 9 to run 100%.

If you select a side mount C-more, then either 9 or 38SC will run 100% in the gun.

[MikeRush]

I think personally I'd like to shoot a middy or full length gun, based on the guns I have tried so far, and again what I see the guys at the top using. I'm really big on light guns, but it seems like most of the shorties are built with really, really long comps which mean they aren't much shorter/lighter than a fullsize. I can always use an aluminum guide rod, take more weight out of the slide, or flute the barrel if it feels too nose heavy.

Additionally, I do not like the horizontal mounts. Maybe the binary engineering dot will be available soon...

[trodrig]

Just a point of correction, I'm 99% sure Kyle's gun is a stroked Akai with V8 ports, gill comp, 5", chambered for 38sc. That is unless he's changed since I shot with him back in February.

[MikeRush]

Just a point of correction, I'm 99% sure Kyle's gun is a stroked Akai with V8 ports, gill comp, 5", chambered for 38sc. That is unless he's changed since I shot with him back in February.

Thank you for the correction.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Have you figured out ALL of those other things?

Maybe my smith can talk me out of that, and into a 9? I'll try.

The problem with 9 major is EJECTION.

If you select the conventional upright mount, don't waste your money on 9. you will suffer a lot trying to get a 9 to run 100%.

When I bought my first 9mm TruBor, about 8 years ago, it was true that trying to get

a 9mm to run 100% with an upright mount was a Quest ...

Not anymore ... :bow:

My two TruBor's (9mm) run 100% with uprights, unless it's time to change some springs.

[lcs]

Have you figured out ALL of those other things?

Maybe my smith can talk me out of that, and into a 9? I'll try.

The problem with 9 major is EJECTION.

If you select the conventional upright mount, don't waste your money on 9. you will suffer a lot trying to get a 9 to run 100%.

When I bought my first 9mm TruBor, about 8 years ago, it was true that trying to get

a 9mm to run 100% with an upright mount was a Quest ...

Not anymore ... :bow:

My two TruBor's (9mm) run 100% with uprights, unless it's time to change some springs.

Are the mounts offset? Brazo's offset will run 9 Major, but the offset just feels wrong and looks wrong sitting on the gun. If I went back to 38SC, I would use a conventional mount also.

[Foxbat]

I had several 9mm guns with no-offset mounts, that ran just fine. They usually show considerable erosion at the bottom, where the cases hit them, but still run fine.

[Shadow]

I had several 9mm guns with no-offset mounts, that ran just fine. They usually show considerable erosion at the bottom, where the cases hit them, but still run fine.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Have you figured out ALL of those other things?

Maybe my smith can talk me out of that, and into a 9? I'll try.

The problem with 9 major is EJECTION.

If you select the conventional upright mount, don't waste your money on 9. you will suffer a lot trying to get a 9 to run 100%.

8 years ago, trying to get

a 9mm to run 100% with an upright mount was a Quest ...

Not anymore ... :bow:

My two TruBor's (9mm) run 100% with uprights, unless it's time to change some springs.

Are the mounts offset?

The sights on my TruBor are uprights - not offset in any way.

And the gun is 100% reliable. :bow:

[Sarge]

My Cheely 9 was originally upright and ran perfect for two years. When the slide broke and was replaced the geometry was never the same and it would eject into the mount and jam. Couldn't tune it out so went to a 90. Ugly as hell in my opinion but the gun runs perfect and the dot is actually better being down so much lower.

[kneelingatlas]

the dot is actually better being down so much lower.

[Shadyscott999]

Just a point of correction, I'm 99% sure Kyle's gun is a stroked Akai with V8 ports, gill comp, 5", chambered for 38sc. That is unless he's changed since I shot with him back in February.

Kyles gun is 100% supercomp. It is the twin to mine. Stroked 38SC V8 with PT SS grip.

[Parallax3D]

My open gun was built by someone locally that I shoot with, (Darren Mulford, Enos username ExtremeShot.)

It was originally one of his guns, and it has a .38 Super and a 9mm barrel.
I've never shot the .38 Super barrel. Never needed to. The 9mm runs just fine. In the 3+ years I've had it, the only time it has ever choked was due to a big-stick mag problem. With the 140mm mags, it always ran like a top. Fixed the big-stick, and it's been fine ever since. Runs everything from minor PF steel loads to 173 PF major with the same 9# spring. The CMore is on a 90 degree Cheeley mount, so ejection is not a problem.

Darren is a Master. He builds his own guns, and all of them in the past several years have been 9 Major.

Really, I think 9 Major works just fine these days.

[EkuJustice]

I'll say pick one and shoot it. It really all depends in what feel and timing you get use to. I don't think you really can test which is "better" as it's more shooter related than anything. How the gun reacts and returns is a bigger thing than how flat the gun is. I know one I the too shooters gun had been described as not very flat at all but he shoots the heck out of it

[MrPostman]

The whole cost argument is silly to me. I spend WAY more per year on match fees, gas, airfare and hotels than I do on brass.

IMO 9M brass costs MORE than Super. I have rarely see a 9 Major guy pick up a single piece of brass. One and done because it is "cheap".

I pick up probably 99% of my super brass in practice and 80% from locals. Some has been loaded so many times the head stamp is barely visible I would guess 15-20 times

If I ONLY get 10 loading out of my super brass it is costing me .0145 per round buying new brass. I typically get more than 10 uses.

That works out to $14.50 per/k Most once fired 9 mm brass is double that. Those numbers change if you pick up 9mm brass, but I rarely see that. I only hear the 9mm guys brag about leaving it on the ground.

Super guns run better, are softer, track better, and live longer. If you just don't like to bend over, 9 major be the round for you.

+1. I still like the idea of having a fitted 9mm barrel for steel matches though.

[Sarge]

The whole cost argument is silly to me. I spend WAY more per year on match fees, gas, airfare and hotels than I do on brass.

IMO 9M brass costs MORE than Super. I have rarely see a 9 Major guy pick up a single piece of brass. One and done because it is "cheap".

I pick up probably 99% of my super brass in practice and 80% from locals. Some has been loaded so many times the head stamp is barely visible I would guess 15-20 times

If I ONLY get 10 loading out of my super brass it is costing me .0145 per round buying new brass. I typically get more than 10 uses.

That works out to $14.50 per/k Most once fired 9 mm brass is double that. Those numbers change if you pick up 9mm brass, but I rarely see that. I only hear the 9mm guys brag about leaving it on the ground.

Super guns run better, are softer, track better, and live longer. If you just don't like to bend over, 9 major be the round for you.

I guess it depends a lot on the shooter. I DO NOT spend an outlandish amount on match fees, hotels, gas etc. I shoot 5-6 majors and usually work the majority of them so I pick up a lot of brass all year long. I have enough 9mm brass on hand to probably shoot for more than 5 years without ever picking any up but I still do so it just keeps multiplying. I know some of my major brass has been reloaded so many times I have lost count. 9mm brass is pretty tough.

I like the option of leaving brass lay if it's been a really long day, or it's really hot or raining, etc. So in my case I only shoot about 7500 rounds a year but thats still what, $700+ in super brass? And then I would be compelled to hunt and peck for my brass during the match instead of enjoying the company of my friends and just shooting.

As for the handling characteristics of 9 vs 38, I think if 9mm were THAT bad compared to 38 it wouldn't be growing in popularity every year. If it was so bad I wouldn't even shoot it.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Sarge

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: So did you pick your gun yet? Thanks, Eric

[MikeRush]

Hello: So did you pick your gun yet? Thanks, Eric

When my favorite smith has time and we can track down a trubor blank the super comp party will get started... I just want the flexibility and confidence I get from the 38.

Down the road I'll probably set up a 9 for 3 gun and then I can reassess and rebarrel if necessary.

Thanks for all the feedback!

[troupe]

I don't shoot as much as I used to, work and home keeps me busy. I have shot both SC and 9M. Where I live, and having been in the sport as long as I have, I am fortunate to have good friends that are world class shooters, meaning that they both have won world titles. At their level, they have the skills down, but at their level they still contend with the mind. They have tuned their minds better than most to not thinking of the shooting, but it is still there.

What I am getting at with my rambling is that if you have any doubt in the back of your mind, then you are beating yourself already. I can say that if you hand Chris or Todd a stock gun, that they will still beat the average shooter with it. Build the gun that makes your mind comfortable, practice and you will beat the 1% buy having less doubt in the back of your mind. Good luck, spend a little extra for the brass, but you will have a clear mind and shoot better.

[pitvpr]

What I am getting at with my rambling is that if you have any doubt in the back of your mind, then you are beating yourself already. I can say that if you hand Chris or Todd a stock gun, that they will still beat the average shooter with it. Build the gun that makes your mind comfortable, practice and you will beat the 1% buy having less doubt in the back of your mind. Good luck, spend a little extra for the brass, but you will have a clear mind and shoot better.

This!