MikeRush Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Serious question. Not a troll... So it is 2015. We hear all the time about how smiths make 9 major guns that work great now, modern comps and powders mean no advantage to 38, cheap brass, etc... Did anyone in the top 10 at Nats shoot 9 major? Or at World Shoot? If not, why not? From the GMs I have talked to, the truckloads of free ammo myth isn't quite reality even for many very good shooters. Front Sight report suggested the division is pretty evenly divided, but I don't know how that distribution works out. From what I have seen, it seems to be more 38 heavy at the top, with a few exceptions. I don't currently shoot Open and I have tried a number of blasters in each caliber- I know what I prefer, after shooting both calibers, but am looking to plunge down the rabbit hole in the next season or so. I am trying to be "Open-minded" here, and I have read the volumes of threads (which mainly revolve around people saying 9 is just as good and more convenient). I haven't really encountered the opinion that 9 major is better from a performance standpoint. A good friend of mine says I will be able to afford to shoot more 9, and that will make me a better shooter, etc, but to make that decision I want to understand what, if anything, I am leaving on the table (or lost brass match, as the case may be). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) I shoot 9mm major for 8 years - it does everything I need it to do. BUT, iff I were a M or GM, trying hard to compress every point into the equipment, I'd probably go with a .38 super - tough/expensive but worth it for the 1% BETTER I MIGHT get. We have a M at our local club who has progressed from B to M in past few years - spending LOTS of money to make the progress - money does not seem to be a determining factor to him, at all. I recently asked him if his new build is a 9mm major or a .38 super, and he said it's a 9mm major - seemed to scoff at the idea of going to .38 super. But, my 9mm major runs 100% of the time, unless I have to change springs, which should be true also for the .38 super. Really, VERY LITTLE, if ANY, benefit to going .38 super. That 1% BETTER? isn't worth it to me. Edited April 13, 2015 by Hi-Power Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyshoots Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 If you have never owned a 38 super go with the 9. I had my gun converted to 9 last year and do not feel that the difference is worth the cost of brass. Most of the good open shooter's around me have said that they would go with 9 if they were not so invested in super. The 9 is not going to hold you back unless you let it. I am going to make master this year, shooting a 9 shorty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Mike, I decided to build an open gun and I'm facing the same dilemma. I've discussed this at length with shooters who use both, and subtracting out pure "preference", it boils down to two things. 1st: 9mm Major works, but you give up a lot in load development You have much more powder/bullet/load flexibility with 38 super, so you can tune your load to make the comp work the way you want. Also, 9mm does not feed quite as reliably as 38 super or comp (one opinion). 2nd: no matter what you are going to lose a lot of brass, even at events where you are allowed to pick it up. 9mm brass is essentially free while 38 super/comp brass is expensive. A majority recommended I go with 9mm major because of the brass expense. The consensus seems to be that unless you are a perfectionist, 9mm major is good enough and a lot cheaper. The guys who own open pistols in both calibers mostly use 9mm for just those reasons. I still haven't decided, but I am leaning towards 38 super for the flexibility. Compared to competitive trap (fees and shells) open shooting is cheap. So it really shouldn't bother me to leave $25-$30 worth of brass on the ground after each match. I do it now with 40sw, but I only pay 4 cents each for that brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 I shoot 9mm major for 8 years - it does everything I need it to do. BUT, iff I were a M or GM, trying hard to compress every point into the equipment, I'd probably go with a .38 super - tough/expensive but worth it for the 1% BETTER I MIGHT get. That 1% BETTER? isn't worth it to me. I totally understand that, and that the performance difference is minimal. The problem I am facing, is by the time I transition to open I will likely already be an M (I am a few percent away in Limited), and maybe even knocking on the door of GM in SS. I know from there, it is a similar learning curve between "just another GM" and "nationally competitive" but I feel like with everything else we spend money on to play, brass is a fraction of the cost. If it is 3% or 1% better I think I want to do it at that level. If I was starting as a D or C maybe the 9 would be better to ride to M at a lower cost. The strange thing is that very few, if any, of the nationally competitive guys select it. I know its the indian not the arrow- but it seems like there is a reason virtually all the chiefs pick the same arrow, right? If you have never owned a 38 super go with the 9. I had my gun converted to 9 last year and do not feel that the difference is worth the cost of brass. Most of the good open shooter's around me have said that they would go with 9 if they were not so invested in super. The 9 is not going to hold you back unless you let it. I am going to make master this year, shooting a 9 shorty. That is part of the problem- my first and only open gun was a 38. My mags work for both, so that's not really a concern, and I have dies, shellplates, etc for both- I just need the gun and components. I shot the 38 briefly but loved the feel and impulse. I've shot some very high dollar, high tech 9s and I still haven't found one that was as soft AND flat as the plain old 38 was. It seems like the 9 has enough gas to be soft, with a good comp, but not very flat OR flat, but with a hard hit to the hand. I know a lot of guys here say they don't mind vertical dot movement but again, for the guys who are fighting for high overall it seems almost unanimous that they go for the 38. Congratulations on approaching master! I know several masters shooting 9 major that routinely clean my clock, while I wait, with no appointment- so clearly it can be used quite effectively. Mike, I decided to build an open gun and I'm facing the same dilemma. I've discussed this at length with shooters who use both, and subtracting out pure "preference", it boils down to two things. 1st: 9mm Major works, but you give up a lot in load development You have much more powder/bullet/load flexibility with 38 super, so you can tune your load to make the comp work the way you want. Also, 9mm does not feed quite as reliably as 38 super or comp (one opinion). 2nd: no matter what you are going to lose a lot of brass, even at events where you are allowed to pick it up. 9mm brass is essentially free while 38 super/comp brass is expensive. A majority recommended I go with 9mm major because of the brass expense. The consensus seems to be that unless you are a perfectionist, 9mm major is good enough and a lot cheaper. The guys who own open pistols in both calibers mostly use 9mm for just those reasons. I still haven't decided, but I am leaning towards 38 super for the flexibility. Compared to competitive trap (fees and shells) open shooting is cheap. So it really shouldn't bother me to leave $25-$30 worth of brass on the ground after each match. I do it now with 40sw, but I only pay 4 cents each for that brass. I totally agree with this. A lot of people are recommending I go with 9 because its cheaper, but I have never heard anyone say to go with 9 because its better. I am buying 40, and one of the guys I shoot with, rolls up and keeps all the brass. 40, like 9, is cheap enough for me to fire and forget (assuming I am not littering, but again, I shoot with a brass vacuum). That scenario would obviously change if I started shooting super comp. I think I would spend about the same on brass by shooting 38 and picking it up. Unlike years prior, most of my shooting is done in practice now where it is easy to recover my own brass. We don't have snow or grass at our ranges, and one of my buddies says he has a 90-95% recovery rate on his SC at the local matches. Thanks for the feedback! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I understand the reason people use 9maj and personally hold no strong opinion as to which is "better" as there are a lot of very good shooters using 9maj now. When the power factor was lowered from 175 to 165 for major, 9mm became viable (safe) with the right powder and loading techniques, which are well known now. I'm sure if the pf wasn't lowered (and 9maj was legal) you would see a lot more people shooting 38 super. It is easier to load, has a larger selection of useable powders, and handles the major PF pressures better. If you don't mind picking up brass, there really is no cost difference between .38 super and leaving 9mm on the ground. In my fantasy world all .38 caliber open shooters would be using Super or SuperComp brass. It would make all of our lives a little easier since then everybody would just pick up brass and more or less split it....kind of like the old days. Anyway it sounds like you have the experience, have thought it through, and are leaning towards 38 super or super comp plus you have the reloading equipment already. Go for it. As you eluded, in all of the discussions/arguments about 9maj vs. 38 super no one ever takes the stance that .38 super gun performance or ease of reloading sucks...rather it is always comparing 9maj to 38 super saying it is "just as good". Starline brass has all the 38 super and supercomp variants in stock now. Buy a few thousand cases and a Brassmower brand brass picker and don't look back. I generally get back about 60 - 75% from matches. That is good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 You guys are lucky. Most of our ranges are grass and dirt to help with erosion. It's hard to find your own brass in it. One range is nice and puts tarps down where the brass should land. I'd be happy with a 60-75% recovery rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Hello: Here is a thought for you. Build a gun with 2 barrel setups and see which one you like better. I have done that and for me the 9mm is good enough. The gun is not the factor it is this guy behind it. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Build a gun with 2 barrel setups and see which you like better. Super idea. Mike, if you're going from M to GM, I'd suggest you go with the .38 Super, but Aircooled has a great idea - build BOTH ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Unless you can't afford the brass, 38 SuperComp. Its more reliable. When you see an open gun choke, its usually a 9 or a super. Others are welcome to contrary opinions. At the M/GM level, one choke and you've usually lost the match. As you've already observed, most of the top shooters use SuperComp. Don't swim upstream. My opinion. Take it for what its worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyshoots Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Sounds like you won't be be happy if you go 9. Buy a super comp gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 The whole cost argument is silly to me. I spend WAY more per year on match fees, gas, airfare and hotels than I do on brass. IMO 9M brass costs MORE than Super. I have rarely see a 9 Major guy pick up a single piece of brass. One and done because it is "cheap". I pick up probably 99% of my super brass in practice and 80% from locals. Some has been loaded so many times the head stamp is barely visible I would guess 15-20 times If I ONLY get 10 loading out of my super brass it is costing me .0145 per round buying new brass. I typically get more than 10 uses. That works out to $14.50 per/k Most once fired 9 mm brass is double that. Those numbers change if you pick up 9mm brass, but I rarely see that. I only hear the 9mm guys brag about leaving it on the ground. Super guns run better, are softer, track better, and live longer. If you just don't like to bend over, 9 major be the round for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 IMO 9M brass costs MORE than Super. I have rarely see a 9 Major guy pick up a single piece of brass. One and done because it is "cheap". I pick up probably 99% of my super brass in practice and 80% from locals. That is the key - I want to enjoy the match, see what is happening, bullshit with my buddies, and not constantly walk around with my eyes glued to the ground. Even if I can recover that 80% - been there, then sold all my 38SC brass and not looking back. Sense of freedom hard to describe. I pay less than 1 cent for 9mm brass, use it a few times in practice, then lose it at the match, so it is as free as it gets. The good 9mm guns, that I had all had been trouble free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino2212 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I have a custom build 9 major gun round count more then 10 k never had a single choke with it . So its a myth that 9 major is less reliable , mayby it once was but not any more . I get my brass from fellow schooters at the range who do not reload so for me my brass is free i do pick it up in practice but not at a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 IMO 9M brass costs MORE than Super. Well, you know what they say about opinions... Here's my experience: I have both, I have bought every piece of 38 in my stash which shrinks every time I shoot it, conversely I have never bought a piece of 9 brass yet my collection continues to grow. I'm with Foxbat, obsessing about my brass really takes away from my shooting experience. I'm not as good a shooter as Mike, so he can take my input with the appropriate amount of salt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dafdov368 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I guess if your worried enough about your brass go with 9. I shoot super comp and haven't had a problem picking it, at least where I shoot if your not pasting or running score your helping police the shooters brass as a courtesy. I think it's just the name of the game where I'm from though as I know it's easier to find brass in sand than in rocks and grass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Hello: Why are we starting this again? Shoot 38 Super Comp be happy, shoot 9mm be happy---- PICK ONE DONE. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 Hello: Why are we starting this again? Shoot 38 Super Comp be happy, shoot 9mm be happy---- PICK ONE DONE. Thanks, Eric Eric, I am not trying to start anything, I promise! The thread title was a joke, because I know the pros and cons have been beaten to death. I am just looking for answers. I appreciate your suggestion to have the gun built with both barrels, but I think I know which one I would end up using, unless I am missing something! I've tried 9 through a 38 (didn't blow up, I didn't die) but given the identical barrel and comp it feels better with the 38. I would love to have the convenience of shooting a 9 Major gun- it really would be nice. I'd love to find a 9 Major setup that is as friendly to the shooter as a 38. I thought maybe with the advances in comps and powder some of the top Open shooters might have changed- if they have, I would be very interested in setup, load data etc. The reality seems to be the guys at the top pretty much unanimously choose the 38. I know a lot of shooters of various classifications like and choose the 9 for convenience, cost, etc, and I am very happy for them. If I could be persuaded that 9 was really the performance equivalent of the 38 I would build one. The problem is, dryfiring for hours a week is not convenient. Devoting Saturdays to shooting isn't convenient. Using vacation time for matches isn't convenient. If the 38 is only 1% better, and the cost is bending over to pick up some brass, that is a trade off I am willing to make. I pull my weight taping, resetting, etc- actually oftentimes more, as others in the squad hoard my 40. I think I have to do the 38, unless there is a setup out there for 9 that truly offers performance as good as a good 38. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Sounds like you just want everyone get up on their feet and in unison proclaim that you are making the right decision. Like they do at a Communist Party Congress. God, please save us from a thread #2,927,643!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansedgli Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 The guys at the top didn't start shooting yesterday. They probably accumulated huge amounts of 38 super before shooting 9mm major became a thing. Which is probably the same reason most of the top guys run regular upright c more mounts and not sideways mounts that get the dot lower to the bore. You don't get good switching your stuff around. I shoot super because 9mm major isn't common where I am from and most people pick up each others brass. Also loading miscellaneous mixed 9mm brass sucks compared to loading nice 38 super with the same headstamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 Sounds like you just want everyone get up on their feet and in unison proclaim that you are making the right decision. Like they do at a Communist Party Congress. God, please save us from a thread #2,927,643!!!!! No, friend, I am not afraid of a differing opinion! I too have risked life and limb to run 9mm through a 38 and even survived posting about it! On the contrary, I am asking for it, just with the understanding that convenience is lower on my list than performance. That shouldn't be taken as an insult to those who shoot 9 major. I'm desperately seeking a case of 9mm actually being "just as good". As I've said before, I'd rather shoot 9 if I could feel like I wasn't leaving anything on the table performance wise. Even those who have rebarreled have said the difference wasn't worth picking up brass, etc, its the difference I'm worried about. Thanks everyone for the feedback. I suppose we can shut this one down... I believe I have my answer. I really just wanted to know if anything had changed and there were any new hot setups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianATL Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Hello: Why are we starting this again? Shoot 38 Super Comp be happy, shoot 9mm be happy---- PICK ONE DONE. Thanks, Eric Eric, I am not trying to start anything, I promise! The thread title was a joke, because I know the pros and cons have been beaten to death. I am just looking for answers. I appreciate your suggestion to have the gun built with both barrels, but I think I know which one I would end up using, unless I am missing something! I've tried 9 through a 38 (didn't blow up, I didn't die) but given the identical barrel and comp it feels better with the 38. I would love to have the convenience of shooting a 9 Major gun- it really would be nice. I'd love to find a 9 Major setup that is as friendly to the shooter as a 38. I thought maybe with the advances in comps and powder some of the top Open shooters might have changed- if they have, I would be very interested in setup, load data etc. The reality seems to be the guys at the top pretty much unanimously choose the 38. I know a lot of shooters of various classifications like and choose the 9 for convenience, cost, etc, and I am very happy for them. If I could be persuaded that 9 was really the performance equivalent of the 38 I would build one. The problem is, dryfiring for hours a week is not convenient. Devoting Saturdays to shooting isn't convenient. Using vacation time for matches isn't convenient. If the 38 is only 1% better, and the cost is bending over to pick up some brass, that is a trade off I am willing to make. I pull my weight taping, resetting, etc- actually oftentimes more, as others in the squad hoard my 40. I think I have to do the 38, unless there is a setup out there for 9 that truly offers performance as good as a good 38. Feels better??? What does that mean? The only feeling that should matter is the one from the timer results. Softer flatter feelings don't always transfer over to the timer and that is what counts. This magical 1% better you speak of where did that number come from? The self described level of shooter you are, A class, while a decent shooter still doesn't have the consistency and skill level to replicate his performance day in day out within a 1% margin of error with any kind of repeatability. I know because I am one. Greater differences in gun "feel" can be experienced by many variables (springs,holes,balance ,weight,grip,...) other than the length of your brass case. If you have the knowledge and experience you can change these variables to make the gun feel like you want it to regardless of 9mm or 38 super. But again I would be cautious with this feel thing and look at the timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Hello: I did a little test a couple of years ago with a Master, GM, 2- B shooters. They shot their guns on the clock on a little stage. We then traded guns around to see how each other would do. Shot it again till everyone shot each others guns. lastly we shot our own guns to get a final time. The top shooters times where almost the same and the B shooters did better with their own guns by more than twice the time difference of the top 2 shooters. I know this is not a complete test but gives you an idea. There was only 1-9mm gun in the group. So from that I could say 9mm was not that much difference than 38 super or super comp. Don't second guess your gut feeling so go out and get that 38 Super Comp gun, running 124 grain bullets, Winchester Small Rifle Primer and which powder you like best. Note I am only a B shooter. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 get that 38 Super Comp gun, running 124 grain bullets I've never shot a .38 super, but wouldn't lighter bullets be more practical with the .38 super (more powder, and more gas)?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc5 Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Hello: Why are we starting this again? Shoot 38 Super Comp be happy, shoot 9mm be happy---- PICK ONE DONE. Thanks, Eric AMEN !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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