Live Round at LAMR

[PhilTerry]

Special case - I think - but actually happened.

Active Law Enforcement Officer approved to attend USPSA matches as part of his training comes during his working shift to shoot using his duty rig. Drives up in his cruiser, signs up, pays his entry fee joins a squad, chats with the guys, helps tape set steel etc. His turn comes to shoot and he walks to the line, RO says Load and Make Ready to which he replies - " I have been ever since I got here. I am on duty"

What is the call??

[shred]

First timer? "Don't do that again, please". Yeah, I know it should be a DQ, but somebody messed up on telling him what the rules are (and all the squadmates should have mentioned the full magwell)

After that have a chat if it's required that he be hot at all times. If not a department rule, then ask nicely to unload for the duration of the match. If the range is so dangerous that throwing a full mag in and racking the slide is just too much time, then find a different range.

If it's a department rule, then somebody besides me gets to make a ruling.

[PhilTerry]

Up until the moment he walked to the line nobody had noticed. He was a cop with a gun nothing unusual!

After the first stage he did keep it unloaded.

[Ted Murphy]

I was at a range once where a bunch of local LEs shot matches. They were required to be hot all the time, per department regs.

The MD made a "gentleman's agreement" with the Le's in question. The agreement was an out of site loaded backup gun with the primary unloaded.

Though this wasn't USPSA.

Ted

[EricW]

If an LEO is on the job, he/she is on the job. Deal with it. Sounds like a USPSA problem, not a cop problem.

[Ronnie j]

I think myself and the guys I regularly shoot with would have noticed he was hot long before his turn to LAMR. Was there a mag in the gun?

[chuckbradley]

If he is actually on the clock, on duty, in duty gear then so what. We cant expect an on duty cop to go around with an unloaded gun. If he is a cop off duty then thats another story. May not be strictly by the rules but is common sense.

[BSeevers]

If an on duty officer can carry a loaded weapon at a USPSA match, then why can't I CCW at a match?

Not provoking but it makes sense to me.

PS How many officers shoot while on duty?

PSS I usually tell new shooters/cops. This is a cold range and good people. If the Shijt does hit the fan, don't worry there are lot's of guns on hips that can be brought to use real fast. Probably the safest place to be besides a cop convention.

[Merlin Orr]

If an on duty officer can carry a loaded weapon at a USPSA match, then why can't I CCW at a match?

Don't see it, Bill. LOTS of difference.

[BSeevers]

If an on duty officer can carry a loaded weapon at a USPSA match, then why can't I CCW at a match?

Don't see it, Bill. LOTS of difference.

Explain?

[EricW]

I've seen a few show up in uniform at matches. If a cop is at a match, in duty gear, he or she should have the option to either remain hot, or maintian a loaded backup. It's not a special privilege. It's respecting a job requirement.

If an off-duty cop is at a match, he or she should have the option of maintaining a loaded backup weapon on his or her person.

This is just bizzarre. This is like reading a web page off the Brady Campaign to Disarm America. We would have no problems about a uniformed LEO carrying a loaded gun anywhere else. Suddenly, we're at an IPSC match and heavens to Betsy if an on-duty cop should have a hot gun and we don't. Oh me. Oh my. The injustice of it all.

Surely to god a cop that shoots IPSC is smart enough to know how to shoot the match and still fulfill their job requirements safely.

[mcoliver]

This thread is interesting only because we also have LE competition shoots back here. And I never wondered that I saw them with their guns unloaded while on the range. Probably a smart thing since I've seen more than a handful pulling out guns from holsters and passing it on to friends.

However, those that didn't compete had mags in their guns.

[Jake Di Vita]

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but what would an on-duty cop be doing at a USPSA match? hehe

[Flexmoney]

The rule doesn't say that cops get an exemption?

Since when do we get to pick which of the rules from the book that we want to use...and which we don't?

If you don't agree with the rule...let your Area Director know. Maybe you can get the rule changed.

[shred]

I think allowing certain people (of whatever group, for whatever reason) to keep certain competition guns hot and not others is just asking for trouble.

What happens when you walk past the safety area? Put your feet up in a chair behind the line? Go prone checking out a port during walkthrough?

Either go full-on hot range or keep the hot guns someplace other than on your hip.

[Crusher]

At our local clubs USPSA is shot under "Cold Range Rules" regardless of the participants "job description" (it's a SAFTEY ISSUE). Many of the "regulars" are observent lil buggers and pick up on new/old faces with "hot" guns upon arrival to the range. At this point the new faces are informed of the "cold range" policy and they are brought a "clearing area" and allowed to "unload and show clear" and life goes on.

We have no problem with shooter comming to the range "hot" with their carry gear, normally after their first visit the seek out an RO and he walks them to an area to "unload and show clear".

BTW this is an GOOD opportunity to assess some basic "gun handling skills" of a NEW face and it helps to place them in a squad of those with similar skill levels. This helps reduce the amount of nervous anxiety from new shooters and from our experience has resulted in a "semi-relaxed" new shooter who hasn't been intimidated by the "racers" from the beginning. If we do it right we normally can keep them comming back.

[DJPoLo]

The MD made a "gentleman's agreement" with the Le's in question.  The agreement was an out of sight, loaded backup gun with the primary unloaded.

Under the strict application of the rules:

DQ'able offense:

10.5.7 Wearing or using more than one handgun at any point in time

during a course of fire.

And, of course:

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to

by the Range Officer. A loaded firearm is defined as a firearm

having a live round in the chamber or having a live round in a

magazine inserted in the firearm.

-Chet

[Ted Murphy]

The MD made a "gentleman's agreement" with the Le's in question.  The agreement was an out of sight, loaded backup gun with the primary unloaded.

Under the strict application of the rules:

DQ'able offense:

FWIW, this was an "outlaw" tactical match. Only reason I know of it is when I started IDPA in the area I was told about these guys and the "agreement" they had with the md of the outlaw match. As it is, they have never come, so it hasn't been an issue at my club.

Some IDPA clubs do the hot range thing. I don't, but have shot at many that have. It is rather interesting. Saves a boatload of time too.

Ted

[ima45dv8]

I think myself and the guys I regularly shoot with would have noticed he was  hot long before his turn to LAMR.  Was there a mag in the gun?

Seems we had that very situation last month, didn't we?

Edited to add a description of the event:

We had an individual who's job requires carrying a loaded pistol come to his first IPSC/USPSA match. Through some regrettable errors in timing, he missed some of the safety briefing that the new shooters received before the match started. It was a cold morning, so he was wearing a jacket like everyone else. When he went to the line for his first stage, he removed his jacket and stepped right up. At that point, the RO noticed a Kel-Tec 3AT clipped into his waitband in the center of his back. With very wide eyes the RO gave a "something's wrong" look.

As I approached them I noticed the gun. Without changing stride I casually walked up, smiled, drapped my left arm around his shoulders so my jacket would cover his backside and conceal the offending appendage from further scrutiny, and asked him to take a walk with me. I couldn't take him into the Safety Area, so I escorted him to a place on the range away from the event and we cleared his hot pistol. Pistol was then stored in my vehicle until the match was completed. I explained the situation and I'm confident it won't be repeated.

Should I have DQ'd him? Some will say yes and some will say no. That's cool, but I was the one tasked with addressing the situation and had to exercise my own judgement (quickly). I'm comfortable with my decision.

...Mark

[outerlimits]

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but what would an on-duty cop be doing at a USPSA match? hehe

krispy kreme was closed?

[IPSCDRL]

Should I have DQ'd him? Some will say yes and some will say no. That's cool, but I was the one tasked with addressing the situation and had to exercise my own judgement (quickly). I'm comfortable with my decision.

...Mark

Well don Mark.

[TRNinTX]

This is just bizzarre. This is like reading a web page off the Brady Campaign to Disarm America. We would have no problems about a uniformed LEO carrying a loaded gun anywhere else. Suddenly, we're at an IPSC match and heavens to Betsy if an on-duty cop should have a hot gun and we don't. Oh me. Oh my. The injustice of it all.

Surely to god a cop that shoots IPSC is smart enough to know how to shoot the match and still fulfill their job requirements safely.

I don't think it has anything to do with trust or fairness. The rules specifically state "cold range". If an LEO can't comply with the rules while on duty then he'll just have to come back and shoot the match while he is off duty.

I think most of the members here trust the guys at their local club with a loaded handgun more than the LEO walking his beat, but it doesn't mean that everybody can walk around a match with a loaded gun.

[dirtypool40]

I got out of the car for my first match, suited up and not knowing any better had an EMPTY mag in the gun. They politely asked me to show clear and explained the rules. No harm done, lesson learned.

As far as LEO carrying hot on range, I shoot with LEO and MIL all the time, both OCONUS and state side. We have never had this problem, with them thinking they are above the rules. That's just ignorant, and if there's a policy like that in place it's needs challenging. There are range rules when they go to qual, do they follow those when told to show clear?

The RULES say how we carry at an IPSC match. If they don't want to (or just can't) follow the rules, then they have chosen not to shoot. Not trying to be a prick, but contrary to some postings in the CCW thread a while ago, cops are not special "ruling class" persons. They are CIVILIANS same as you and me, with the PRIVELEDGE to carry openly. Once they swear off ftheir civil rights and take up the UCMJ then they can snidely refer to "us" as civilians.

Lastly, again referring to the dumb posts in the CCW thread, once the LEO identified all those dangerous "armed civilians" shouldn't he have disarmed them all? By force in required? LOL.

Think about it.

I know tough guy, your going to get a call and have to.....load your gun on the way? Deal with it.

You're afraid of the admin puke who wrote the policy of "armed and tactical 24/7". Yeah, sounds like Ross on Friends with his "Oonagi" mindset.

A little common sense here.

Sorry, been here too long, need a vacation. Headed stateside tomorrow.

[Patrick Sweeney]

An interesting conundrum. First, does departmental policy trump range rules for safety? If the department really does require "all armed, all the time" then what does the range do? And is the officer really on duty while competing?

Some thoughts: First time, anyone who DQs a cop who for whatever reason hasn't gotten the full safety briefing, should be consigned to range nazi hell. Explain, correct, send him on his way.

Find out from the department if the officer can comply with the range and USPSA rules while in the match. Be sure and explain that while his/her sidearm will be empty, they'll have a belt full of loaded magazines, and can be loaded in a second or two.

As for the difference between an LEO and a citizen CCW, you aren't paying attention. First, the LEO has a great big target, called a uniform, on. If anything goes wrong, the stupidest bad guy around knows to "shoot the blue" first. Second, he/she has sworn an oath to serve and protect. As in you. Your options in the face of danger include flight. In many cases, his option list does not. You may be as safe or safer, but the State has determined that he/she is better trained and educated in the legalities of lethal force. And granted authority to exercise said force in a wider range of situations than you have. It isn't personal, so get over it.

If the department is unbending on the always loaded reg, and the club can't turn a blind eye, then we've just precluded building a bridge to the LEO community. If the department is adamant, perhaps you should invite supervisory LEO to a match, to see how things work?

As for sitting, standing, etc. with loaded handguns, I spend a lot of time on ranges teaching LEO the intricacies of the AR-15. Most have a handgun on the whole time, all loaded. If someone goes prone I just move out of the line of the muzzle. Guns in holsters are safe, as long as they are left alone. But it is an odd feeling, looking down a bore and seeing a hollowpoint. If we told them to unpack and unload, they'd pass on the class. I have not yet figured a way to completely reconcile USPSA range rules with the reality of the LEO environment.

[dirtypool40]

Well, I don't want to turn this into a "get thrown off the boards" contest, but again I guess we agree to disagree.

I think it's still LEO's job to find out the rules and then find a way to make everyone happy. That's just common sense.

The rest I"ll send in a PM.