If we have Limited 10...why not Production 10?

[rowdyb]

Sorry for the off topic, but I do not mean to say your child sucks. Just in something where score is kept and is considered a competition (that people happen to find fun) that practicing skills and fundamentals will be of greater value to a greater number of people than a change to the amount of rounds allowed in a division.

Again, not a personal attack.

In just a few months of shooting Production I have very much noticed the prevalence of 'shoot 8 here, move/reload. shoot 8 here. move/reload. shoot 8 here.' stages.

Edited November 25, 2014 by rowdyb

[grapemeister]

I see this from 2 different perspectives.

1) new shooter who lacks USPSA type accuracy skills has trouble knocking down a steel array without a standing reload. Yes, they will get frustrated. But newbies should not have such high expectations. Failure to differing degrees are part of the learning curve.

2) ( My personal perspective) reloading is part of the skill set that sets shooters of different levels apart. Reloading skills are important in limited capacity Divisions. I like them because I'm willing to put the time in to improve. So in this regard I like the 10 round capacity limit.

Someone made a great point earlier, due to the typical USPSA 8 round arrays, 15 rounds really gives you no advantage unless you are accuracy challenged (newbie). Sure this is an issue for the newbie, but in my opinion, we as a society are too ingrained to give instant gratification these days, what happened to working to achieve something worthwhile?

10 round is fine for production unless we are going to rid USPSA of 8 round arrays.

+1

Yeah, for those of you that don't have both IPSC and USPSA experience, there isn't a huge difference in your stage planning when considering magazine capacity. Can it make a big difference on some stages, sure, depending on one's level of shooting. But, for the most part your planned reloads are about the same. I may have actually shot better at this years IPSC Nationals, and World Shoot if I was limited to 10 rounds, knowing I didn't have the extra rounds to play with. Yeah, that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it.

Having said all that, a 15 round limit in Production would be nice, but if we went that way, I don't see any way around not having two Production divisions, one being Production 10, and I'm not for creating another division just to allow for a higher magazine capacity.

[Jim Norman]

If you REALLY want to shoot Production 15 like IPSC, it is really simple, convince your local MDs to run their matches under IPSC rules, it is legal. If it was that popular that is what you'd see. You would also see turtle targets, no Metrics. Production would use race holsters and all your friends with .40 cal production guns would be SOL.

[d_striker]

If you REALLY want to shoot Production 15 like IPSC, it is really simple, convince your local MDs to run their matches under IPSC rules, it is legal. If it was that popular that is what you'd see. You would also see turtle targets, no Metrics. Production would use race holsters and all your friends with .40 cal production guns would be SOL.

Don't Glock, M&P, Sig, and XDm 40's all hold at least 15 rounds with factory mags?

I'm really not trying to play devil's advocate here; I seriously don't know what Production 40's hold less than 15. I can think of the old XD and maybe the Beretta???

Edited November 28, 2014 by d_striker

[d_striker]

Hey rowdyb...thanks for the advice. I will be sure to tell my 12 year that that he sucks and should focus more on the fundamentals. I just thought if we could make things a little easier on new shooters that more of them might stick round a little longer. I wasn't trying to pick a fight with anyone.

As for having fun...that's everything for me and my kids. If it's not fun then why do it.

I am not defined as a person by how well I do in a USPSA match. It's something I do for fun and am trying to share with my sons. I apologize to anyone I may have offended by being this up.

I don't really have a dog in this fight. I rarely shoot Production and when I do, I'm fine with 10 rounds. 15 would be cool, but whatever. It's not going to happen.

I shot a local match last month on a squad with about 5 shooters new to USPSA. They were all shooting Production with duty type guns. One girl only had 3 mags and it wasn't enough on a few stages. They didn't quite understand the different divisions and were shooting Production because someone just told them to shoot Production rather than Limited and load up their mags up to capacity.

I doubt they'll be back.

Edited November 28, 2014 by d_striker

[bikerburgess]

If you REALLY want to shoot Production 15 like IPSC, it is really simple, convince your local MDs to run their matches under IPSC rules, it is legal. If it was that popular that is what you'd see. You would also see turtle targets, no Metrics. Production would use race holsters and all your friends with .40 cal production guns would be SOL.

Don't Glock, M&P, Sig, and XDm 40's all hold at least 15 rounds with factory mags?

I'm really not trying to play devil's advocate here; I seriously don't know what Production 40's hold less than 15. I can think of the old XD and maybe the Beretta???

in 40, CZs and many clones, Sigs, Berretas and clones, non M XDs, gen3 Smiths. I think these are all 12 rd guns

In 45 I don't know of any that hold 15

[Nik Habicht]

I'm really not trying to play devil's advocate here; I seriously don't know what Production 40's hold less than 15. I can think of the old XD and maybe the Beretta???

There are a ton of guns on the production list that hold less than 15 rounds. Just in Glocks alone, the 21, 23, 26, 27, 32,36, 37,38,39, and 41 come to mind. The Sig 228/229 in 9mm, compact Berettas, compact M&Ps, virtually every 3 or 4 digit S&W that isn't chambered in 9mm, as well as some that are chambered in 9mm hold less than 15.

These are the guns that shows up in the hands of new competitors -- because they're the guns they already own. One of the reasons Production took off as a division, is because it was incredibly inclusive to entry, in large parts due to minor scoring, DA triggers, and last but absolutely not least, capacity restrictions.

Gun owners could show up with the gun they owned, the additional mags they bought, and not feel like they couldn't be competitive. They didn't feel like they would need to buy a gun in addition to gear to start playing....

That's pretty important in terms of growing the sport.....

I know one guy who shot his way into C with a Glock 26, before buying a new gun -- a Glock 19......

Now are folks going to always shoot these guns, if they stay in the sport? Probably not -- but what do we gain by slamming the door to entry? And the answer should be something other than "I think it would be more fun to be able to shoot 15 rounds between reloads....." You can do that already.....

If we want to grow the sport -- or at least have fresh blood entering at the same rate as folks drop out -- then we need to ensure that we remain inclusive. Not every division can look like another version of Limited or Open, with a select list of (expensive) guns......

[teros135]

I don't really have a dog in this fight. I rarely shoot Production and when I do, I'm fine with 10 rounds. 15 would be cool, but whatever. It's not going to happen.

I shot a local match last month on a squad with about 5 shooters new to USPSA. They were all shooting Production with duty type guns. One girl only had 3 mags and it wasn't enough on a few stages. They didn't quite understand the different divisions and were shooting Production because someone just told them to shoot Production rather than Limited and load up their mags up to capacity.

I doubt they'll be back.

And that's not about the Production 10-round mag limit. It's about someone forgetting about telling them to simply shoot Limited.

Just about no off-the-street shooter is going to be "competitive" in this complex sport right out of the box anyway, so shoot Limited (or Open, for the gung-ho "carry optics" owner) and have fun.

If they like the sport and don't have enough mags, they'll buy more. (This whole "it's unfair to ask someone to buy mags" argument is getting really thin. If you can't/won't purchase a few relatively inexpensive mags, I can't imagine being able/willing to afford the gun and ammo.)

Let's give this a rest, folks. Like d_striker said, It ain't gonna happen, so why keep pecking at it?

Edited November 28, 2014 by teros135

[d_striker]

I don't really have a dog in this fight. I rarely shoot Production and when I do, I'm fine with 10 rounds. 15 would be cool, but whatever. It's not going to happen.

I shot a local match last month on a squad with about 5 shooters new to USPSA. They were all shooting Production with duty type guns. One girl only had 3 mags and it wasn't enough on a few stages. They didn't quite understand the different divisions and were shooting Production because someone just told them to shoot Production rather than Limited and load up their mags up to capacity.

I doubt they'll be back.

And that's not about the Production 10-round mag limit. It's about someone forgetting about telling them to simply shoot Limited.

Just about no off-the-street shooter is going to be "competitive" in this complex sport right out of the box anyway, so shoot Limited (or Open, for the gung-ho "carry optics" owner) and have fun.

If they like the sport and don't have enough mags, they'll buy more. (This whole "it's unfair to ask someone to buy mags" argument is getting really thin. If you can't/won't purchase a few relatively inexpensive mags, I can't imagine being able/willing to afford the gun and ammo.)

Let's give this a rest, folks. Like d_striker said, It ain't gonna happen, so why keep pecking at it?

They weren't going to be competitive in Production or Limited so we just had them load their mags up so they could complete the stages.

I chatted with a couple of them for a bit here and there. They simply didn't understand the whole 10 round thing. Once we bumped them to Limited they were like, "So we're in the same division as that guy?" while pointing to a guy with a 2011.

Although they were new you could tell they were competitive individuals and didn't like the idea of being in a division with 2011's.

[trp]

Why not make "open 10" or "single stack 6" or open revolver .... Open revolver could be bad ass

[teros135]

They weren't going to be competitive in Production or Limited so we just had them load their mags up so they could complete the stages.

I chatted with a couple of them for a bit here and there. They simply didn't understand the whole 10 round thing. Once we bumped them to Limited they were like, "So we're in the same division as that guy?" while pointing to a guy with a 2011.

Although they were new you could tell they were competitive individuals and didn't like the idea of being in a division with 2011's.

They may be "competitive" but they also seem to want to have it all their way. "If I can't have what I want I'm going home". So go. You can't please everyone.

Like the knucklehead at a recent match who ran around with his finger on the trigger, including reloads, movement, ULSC, etc and got all huffy that we actually want to have safety rules. He said he shoots all kinds of other sports and they *all* allow finger, all the time. He stayed for a bit (his friend was shooting) and kept complaining that he was DQd for a "trivial" offense. Bet he won't come back - and we won't miss him (unless he somehow shapes up, then of course we'll welcome him back).

Edited November 29, 2014 by teros135

[bikerburgess]

as an RO it is way easier to count to 10 than 15

[PatJones]

as an RO it is way easier to count to 10 than 15

I can't count to 10, that's why I shoot revolver.

[teros135]

The slide lock has always told me it's time to reload. Slide Lock is your friend!

[Dennis (CT)]

Posted 22 November 2014 - 06:56 PM

So let's see who is limited to 10 rounds or less..........

New York

Massachussetts

Hawaii

California

Connecticut

Maryland

Wow, a grand total of six. So 44 states have to kowtow to six of them?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clarification on Conn. - Your Carry Gun can only have 10 rounds in your mags when you walk your front door.

(& your first Offense is a Ticket if found to have more than 10 in a mag),

In your Home and/or once at the range - FILL 'EM !!

Edited December 6, 2014 by Dennis (CT)

[cnote]

Posted 22 November 2014 - 06:56 PM

So let's see who is limited to 10 rounds or less..........

New York

Massachussetts

Hawaii

California

Connecticut

Maryland

Wow, a grand total of six. So 44 states have to kowtow to six of them?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes ...........

Not that I want it but , if shooting production with 15rounds sound good to you , why not major and minor too

--------Don't mess with a good thing -------

Production is one of our most successful divisions lately

Shoot limited minor if you want to load more than 10

Edited December 6, 2014 by cnote

[RMark]

I started shooting IPSC / USPSA in the late 80's. I those days everything was heads up, with Revolver only sub class. I started with a Gold Cup 45acp shooting to B class. 38 Super were coming in the picture, but still having problems with unsuported barrel. Then I had a 45 comp built, Then the suported barrel came in and the Super was King. I am 2 rounds down now. The matches were kept revolver neutral, that made thing close for all guns. Then you started seeing 10 round strings in matches. I was on to a 38 Super to keep up.

Then the high cap guns enter the game. You started seeing 12 round or better strings. Now I am making standing reloades. I was looking at $3500 to build a High cap gun to stay in the game. Limited class was started, but everyone was building High Cap. I had stayed behind the game for 6 years. I WAS DONE, i sold guns and had rifles built. USPSA was lost alot of people at this time, due to the arms race.

IPSC / USPSA had lost people right and left, they had to do something. To late to keep me in the game USPSA came up with the current classes for today. Production is a good class, you can take a factory gun and shoot. Limited10 was for the ones that had the old guns like me.

Now to the topic. Then production was created, the high cap mag ban was in place, that is why the 10 round cap. I am looking to get back in the game. I have gone to the M&P pro 9mm, looking to shoot IDPA and USPSA production. Now they make high grade High cap guns. Now have to load only load 10 round, THAT IS WHAT TICKS ME OFF. I spent years running behind in round cap, now I have it, I CAN'T USE IT.

Some have said shoot Limited ( minor ) Is this a classs? or my only choice, other than Production. I will shoot Limited and be behind again. I do understand the Prodction 10 rd limit, but we need a Production Limited class with 140mm mag.

Mark

[zhunter]

RMark

Forget about it, if it makes you feel better, pretend your mags only hold 10

[teros135]

Some have said shoot Limited ( minor ) Is this a class? or my only choice, other than Production. I will shoot Limited and be behind again. I do understand the Production 10 rd limit, but we need a Production Limited class with 140mm mag.

Yikes! - Production Limited - Production 10 - Production Optics - Production Comp ...

This is a lot like "I want a new Production division for MY favorite equipment".

Ain't gonna happen, I would think. There's a place to shoot whatever equipment you have. Go play, and have fun!

[motosapiens]

I started shooting IPSC / USPSA in the late 80's. I those days everything was heads up, with Revolver only sub class. I started with a Gold Cup 45acp shooting to B class. 38 Super were coming in the picture, but still having problems with unsuported barrel. Then I had a 45 comp built, Then the suported barrel came in and the Super was King. I am 2 rounds down now. The matches were kept revolver neutral, that made thing close for all guns. Then you started seeing 10 round strings in matches. I was on to a 38 Super to keep up.

Then the high cap guns enter the game. You started seeing 12 round or better strings. Now I am making standing reloades. I was looking at $3500 to build a High cap gun to stay in the game. Limited class was started, but everyone was building High Cap. I had stayed behind the game for 6 years. I WAS DONE, i sold guns and had rifles built. USPSA was lost alot of people at this time, due to the arms race.

IPSC / USPSA had lost people right and left, they had to do something. To late to keep me in the game USPSA came up with the current classes for today. Production is a good class, you can take a factory gun and shoot. Limited10 was for the ones that had the old guns like me.

Now to the topic. Then production was created, the high cap mag ban was in place, that is why the 10 round cap. I am looking to get back in the game. I have gone to the M&P pro 9mm, looking to shoot IDPA and USPSA production. Now they make high grade High cap guns. Now have to load only load 10 round, THAT IS WHAT TICKS ME OFF. I spent years running behind in round cap, now I have it, I CAN'T USE IT.

Some have said shoot Limited ( minor ) Is this a classs? or my only choice, other than Production. I will shoot Limited and be behind again. I do understand the Prodction 10 rd limit, but we need a Production Limited class with 140mm mag.

Mark

so you made silly decisions, and you want everyone else to change for your convenience?

Trade your 9mm in for a 40, and shoot limited major if it makes you feel better.

[bikerburgess]

shoot Limited and declare minor power factor, yes you will be shooting against guys shooting major but who cares, throw some extensions on your mags and load them up, 23+1 is quite a bit of fun and sometimes it can be an advantage. There are many that will make it sound like shooting minor vs major is like trying to drag race a top fuel dragster with a broken down pinto, but the reality is that it is not that big a difference. once you have played for a while you can then decide if you want to get a different gun that better matches a specific division you want to play in.

[Skizeks]

we aint shooting IPSC its USPSA. YOU want to go shoot ISPC then shoot ISPC.

People stop trying to change the rules to fit U. Thats how we got IDPA.

Production is 10 rds. It levels the field! it was intended as a starting point for USPSA where a shooter wouldn't have to spend a couple grand to get into it.

[Chris iliff]

I'm all for Production Optics...........

Wait, what thread is this?

[EdHorton]

OK, so I'm new here, so I'd imagine my opinion won't count for much, but after reading this thread the answer seems obvious.

Why do free states have to deal with a 10rd production limit? Why are restricted states handicapped with a 10rd Open limit?

Have a "10" for production, limited, and open (ie Open-10, Limited-10, and Prod-10). This way even the restricted state competitors can go to other states and still compete within their respective "10" division, and the free states can have 15 in prod and big sticks in open. Six state laws dictate you are doing that anyway, its just done unofficially, and not scored nationally.

This seems to benefit both the free and restricted states. I would imagine an open shooter in restricted Cali would be pretty happy to have to opportunity to achieve GM in open-10, and a 1911 fan in free Alaska would be able to compete against him with his highly modified single stack. If I'm military and spent thousands on my 2011, I could still use it in a national division if I got sent to Hawaii. If I was in Hawaii and spent thousands on my High-Power to compete locally, I could still compete when moved to Alaska.

It will encourage new shooters as well if they are allowed 15 (or whatever) in production. New shooters here usually show up with some type of modern double-stack. They are usually told they should shoot in limited so they don't have to worry about reloads, and that will give them better times. I agree with this, however, what do they think about shooting against highly modified guns, isn't that a bit demoralizing? Put yourself in a new shooter's (or an experienced, but new to competition shooter's) shoes. The load 10 or shoot against multi-thousand $$ guns rule probably seems pretty silly to someone trying out the sport. Will that be why they don't want to come back?

I believe this would help participation in all states. I really can't see how it would hamper people wanting to continue with USPSA.

It would be easy to start as far as classes go. Just change the name and statistics of what's currently production to production-10 and add the other two divisions, open-10 and "new" production (or production-15). All current rules stay the same, just add a 10 round modifier to each one.

People keep saying production is for a level playing field and it's for those who don't want to spend thousands on a gun. How is PUTTING 5 MORE ROUNDS in a mag affecting either of those? I can't think of a single competitive production gun that doesn't hold 15 to start with.

There are no downsides, except a bit of extra work at nationals to make it happen.

What say y'all?

Edited January 5, 2015 by EdHorton

[JAFO]

I still don't get why this discussion keeps coming up.

EVERYONE in Production is loading to 10. Everyone in that Division is on equal footing. That means that everyone is having to plan around 10 in the mag. So really, the only argument for increasing the capacity is so you might not have to do a reload here or there.

If you think it would be more fun to shoot more/reload less, get some extended basepads and shoot Limited. I have seen people tear it up shooting Limited Minor against people of the same or higher classification shooting Major, so I don't buy the premise that Limited Minor cannot be competitive.

I also think that new competitors are put into Limited as an easy way to try the sport. You're not putting them there and saying, "this is what you will shoot all the time." If they didn't show up with enough mags for Production, you put them in Limited as opposed to sending them home or having them not finish stages. I've seen people decide to stay in Production when they didn't have enough mags, and they're faces showed the disappointment at not being able to finish a stage. Shooting Limited they would have had more fun. And if they have fun and like the game, then they can decide if they want to get more magazines and shoot Production or get some mag extensions (or even a different gun) and stay in Limited.