chp5 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Flex - I totally ageee with your comments re internal versus external improvement. All I'm saying is that it's easier to load a fat gun. I looked at the 2004 Area results and (I may be wrong so someone correct me if I am) - no shooter won L10 with a single stack. You guys can reason that away, but it is what it is. BTW - I expect to see all you guys shooting single stacks in L10 this season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 chp5, do you think the results would have been different if the top 8 shot SS instead of their fat guns? I think was Steven said is the reason the top guys shoot S_Is: I think that's probably for one of two reasons (which is really only one reason). (1)Either those shooters are more experienced shooters and have been shooting Limited for quite some time and decided for whatever reason to shoot L10 for that particular match...or (2) many of the single stackers may be somewhat newer shooters and aren't as skilled as those that happened to be shooting widebody guns on that particular day....the commonality between the two....shooting skill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 News flash, folks, C-class shooters are the bread and butter of this sport. Cater to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 News flash, folks, C-class shooters are the bread and butter of this sport. Cater to them. +101 Cullen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Ok, so I got beat by several out-of-state higher classed shooters, but I still got the SC State L-10 champion belt buckle and check. Shooting my Kimber SS.... I don't give downloaded Limited guns a second thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeeter Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 fat guns only help on standing reloads. on a long course you have more movement more time. i mean does it matter if you do a 1.2 reload or a 1.5 if you have 3 seconds of movement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 watch TGO shoot his 6 inch springfield SS and youll think he should be in open division... If your gonna shoot a SS, buy 10 round mag, practice and stop complaining...the guy shooting a well worn STI with downloaded mags in L10 is good because he has nearly worn a gun(or two) out by practicing, and KNOWS how to shoot, to be honest he could probably kick your ass with my grandpas korean war era 1911. I will shoot my glock in L10...and its not a multi thousand dollar race gun, ill probably still shoot better than a guy with minimal equipment, on his first match day shooting full power 45s in his trusty 'Kimber' we dont need another division..not even sure we need limited 10 anyway, as i see folks shoot their single stacks in limited (or beretta 96 40 caliber 12 shooter) and do quite well...i cant think of a single legal USPSA stage that requires 20 static shots..plenty of time to reload as you come to your next array. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Harmon and Flex, I agree with just about everything you guys are saying. We're on the same page I think overall, just have slightly different ideas on the marketing of what should be our cross-over/new shooter divisions. A good shooter can win any given division, any weekend with what they practiced like dickens with to get good at - Glock, SS, S_I, Kel-Tec, whatever. We all acknowledge that. And, yes, just because the Lim-10 winner is shooting a well worn downloaded S_I, that doesn't mean the equipment won it for him - it was the shooter, and his dedication to practice. Fully granted. In most cases I'd wager a shooter uses their Limited blaster downloaded in Lim-10 for 1 main reason -he already has it, and is comfortable with it. They would still be competitive with a SS, or whatever, if they choose to go that route. I'm just saying that good IPSC shooters shoot at such unearthly speeds (to mere mortals and beginners), it almost looks like magic.... most new, or average guys have a hard time getting their head around the concept that they could be that fast too, if they just practiced - their inexperience and ego just won't let them concede that they are just that slow/bad. So they start latching on to the outward visible crutches they see that can explain why that guy is so dang fast - race configured Limited Guns and holsters, for one, being the most obvious outward sign. (This is why there have always been, and will always be, equipment wars in any Division or Shooting Sport) But it seems like there are so many shooters out there that either used to play USPSA, or tried it once or twice and never came back, or that shoot other sports (IDPA, Steel, etc), because the perception (right or wrong) is that the gear they carried or currently owned just wasn't good enough. Bad marketing on our part, I know, and yes it can be overcome to some extent at the club level by the current mebership, with effort. From recent memory, it seems like most new shooters in our area (80% +or so?) show up with a Glock in Kydex, or a 1911 in a leather concealment holster w/8 round mags. We seem to retain many more of the Glock shooters; is it a coincidence that we have a division (Production) that caters to that gun 100%? It would just be nice to have some sort of level playing field for the guys who WANT to shoot 1911s with carry gear and 8 round mags. Sure they could all buy 10rd mags and better holsters, but its not what they have NOW. Give them a chance to get hooked on the sport; they will upgrade their current gun, or buy Glocks and S_Is, etc. eventually, more than likely. And especially now, of all times, USPSA should probably have a more "IDPA gear" like shooting opportunity. My last 2 cents, this argument is tired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 It is, most of the time - it is the best place for them to start, with their current equipment. Until they show up and get their butt kicked by a GM or M shooting a downloaded SV or STI in full race gear..... New shooters are ALWAYS going to get their butt kicked by a GM with an open gun regardless of whether they're shooting L10 or the unnecessary single stack division. If they don't understand that a single stack in L10 is not competing against and open GM, it's not going to make any difference if they're in a single stack division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 True. However if you have two shooters of the same skill shooting the stage the same way with three reloads - then it does make a difference. I just flat out don't buy that at all. Sorry. I refuse to believe in the equipment crutch. A good reload is a good reload. The problem, as I see it, is that we have a lot of shooters that just don't practice. They top out at a certain level. And, that is that. So, the reasons start coming out. Look at this forum...see where the questions come. ...what shoes do you wear? ...what holster is best? ...what powder...bullet weight...caliber...spring...sights... on and on and on and on... Many shooters spend their time stuck on those type of questions...looking externally for the next bit of improvement. Once you get to a certain level of functionality (gun works, hits where it is aimed), all that other "external" stuff likely adds up to about 5% or so of performance. Yet, sooo many spend the majority of their time buried in this 5%. I know how little the equipment matters. I know that it doesn't matter if I swing an Eastwing hammer or a Craftsman special...unless I hit the nail on the head...it is not going to get driven into the board. We need to steer the focus...the marketing...toward shooting. Solving the shooting problem is what we are about. Expanding the divisions does the exact opposite. It puts the focus on external factors...not internal problem solving. We grow internally. Flex: There is a MAJOR difference in reloading a single stack vs. a wide body. If you don't believe us, try it. I shot SVI's and STI's for years with bigmouth magwells. 1 to 1.25 second reloads were the norm. When I started shooting a single stack with a magwell (S&A), the reloads slowed down to 1.5 to 1.75 seconds. With the widebody guns, one can be a little off on the attack angle and still have the magwell compensate for the error. With a single stack the amount of forgiveness is reduced tremendously. I have shot a Glock exclusively now for two years and have to admit that the larger opening is considerably much easier to hit than a single stack. And yes, in a match that contains several speed shoots requiring reloads, it can make a difference in the final results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 There is a MAJOR difference in reloading a single stack vs. a wide body. If you don't believe us, try it. I shot SVI's and STI's for years with bigmouth magwells. 1 to 1.25 second reloads were the norm. When I started shooting a single stack with a magwell (S&A), the reloads slowed down to 1.5 to 1.75 seconds. With the widebody guns, one can be a little off on the attack angle and still have the magwell compensate for the error. With a single stack the amount of forgiveness is reduced tremendously. I have shot a Glock exclusively now for two years and have to admit that the larger opening is considerably much easier to hit than a single stack. And yes, in a match that contains several speed shoots requiring reloads, it can make a difference in the final results. Sorry ---- I'm with Flex here. I actually find the single-stack with S&A magwell easier to reload than the Glock without one. Practice --- and those 1.25 second reloads can happen again..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 I generally carry a 1911 with the SA magwell off duty. Aint a shit of difference in reload times from my open or limited STI's. This is just another case of pissing and moaning instead of getting off your ass and shooting. The reason that most of the l-10 is won by the STI/SV type guns is that anyone with half a brain can figure out that I can buy 1 gun and shoot 2 divisions. Same gun, same mags, same gear.. save money and learn the gun. USPSA is turning into the modern era of gee let's give everybody an award so they don't get their little feelings hurt. Grow a set and go compete. Somebody wins and a whole bunch lose... it's the reason we bother to keep score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 I made "M" in Limited Division with a 20 year old Colt Gold Cup. If "I" can make it using a SS and having to deal with the "perception" that .25 to .5 second slower reload ( something I don't believe by the way) is the "end of the world" ... SO CAN YOU ! Without spending a large volume of time...I became pretty damn good at stuffing a mag in the frame of a SS pistol. You'd realize how big a deal this really is if you only knew how lazy I really am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Not addressed to ANY particular individual. Just a comment.... I think I am seeing a pattern develop here. The really good shooters (some)- high classifications and those who have shot for a looonng time seem to have the "let them eat cake" attitude. Hey I did it so they can (must) too - or - If you have a harder gun to shoot or load (perceived or real) just practice more than the next guy to make up for the difference (perceived or real). What's up with this? We have everything from elitist & arrogant to insulting and demeaning....Are we going from "I beg to differ" to you are a half brain with no balls if you disagree? I don't understand the opposition to a "Provisional" SS category. If all other categories are left as is - what's the diff?? Why does it bother anyone that there may be another (new) group of shooters if it does not affect them directly? If someone has the perception that they would be more competitive shooting against only other SS guns - so what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmshtr Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Hey, I have an idea. Maybe we could have another revolver division, too! I just can't reload my 45 as fast as I can my 9mm. Oh...IDPA beat us too it! Forgive the elitist, arrogant, insulting, or demeaning attitude, but you either hit a reload or you don't. I've missed and bobbled just as many hi-cap reloads as I have SS ones. I think encouraging people to practice shouldn't be construed as elitist, arrogant, insulting, or demeaning. I actually broke out my old Limited gun, a Colt SS, and started playing with it about a month ago. After a few minutes, my reloads were actually as fast AND more consistent with it. When L10 was first introduced, I too felt that it should be single stack only. I thought, "how is someone with a single stack going to compete with a fat gun? There are too many reloads." When Rob showed up with his SS at the Factory Gun Nationals, I changed my tune. Were his reloads slower? YES... but no slower than usual. Did it make a difference? OF COURSE NOT. There was one speed shoot in the entire match (El Prez). He beat the crap out of all of us...not because of his technique or being better, but because of his consistent shooting. Even IF your reloads were .25 slower, big deal. If you shoot one more C than that "faster gun," you come out on top. And that's for one stage in a major! If you're moving...which you almost always are at a major... then it doesn't matter if you're .25 slower. You're moving, not shooting. We do have a Single Stack division...it's called Limited 10. The divisions are working the way they are. I fill EVERY match I hold at my range, and 80% are L10 and Production shooters. It must be working. If it's not broke, don't break it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 If something is easier for a D class shooter, it's easier. If it takes more practice to do something just as fast as something else, it's harder. Mag opening size makes a difference. If it didn't, 1911s would come without a magwell, and without the bevel on the mag opening. Those things are equipment crutches as well. If a Basketball hoop were 6 feet in diameter, I'm sure some players would say their free throw percentage wouldn't go up, because they are already so good. I think you see where I'm going with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 I should be obvious to all that if you are a shooter who really wants to do the best they are capable of ...first get all the gee whiz equipment then wear it out practicing...that takes care of all the loose ends...best stuff and lots of practice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 For what it's worth, I think I can reload with my single stacks faster than my Para now that I have S&A mag wells on them. I have an EGW mag well on heavy Para. I suspect the key for me is that I can manipulate skinny magazines with my Billy Barty-like hands significantly easier than I can Para mags. If we had to do IDPA-style reloads, the single stacks would be easier for just about everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Adding new division whether provisional or not does effect everyone. Well I guess if your the type of person that doesn't care about competition then it doesn't but for the rest of us it sure as hell does. They keep spreading the competitors out so that at some matches you have 2-3 people shooting prod. or L-10. If want want to show up with a SS great... just shoot it in L-10 like it was meant to be by the rules. Pretty soon we'll have so many divisions that the competition will be like shooting revolver 1 or 2 at an area match. I see people mentioning a crutch.. well having to create a new division so YOU feel you can compete sounds like one big assed crutch to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 If you want the most competition, I'd suggest Limited or Open, as they are typically the best attended. And "they" don't keep spreading the competitors out, the competitors do. I also see the provisional division as an attempt to add shooters, not spread the same shooters over a larger piece of bread. Thread drift....Chriss, are you going to get a partner and come out to shoot the ITRC this year? Sounds like it would be right up your alley. They raised the cash award for first place to $2500 this year. Should be a heck of a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 I don't understand why this gets everyone in an uproar. No one is looking to eliminate a division, I think that has been proven. Adding this division will either work, or it won't. Either way, no harm will be done. There are obviously some strong feelings about it both ways. If we didn't try new things, there would be no divisions, like in the beginning of the sport. If this division brings new shooters and proves itself, then great. If it fails, then we know the demand is not there. If you could bring new shooters in with a division that only allowed 5 shot DAO revolvers with less than 2 inch barrels and nothing else, then would it be wrong? I guess I am not against this idea of this new division, nor am I against leaving L10 the way it is, but if you are for leaving L10 the same, and not creating this provisional division on a trial basis, then what is your motivation? If there is no need, then where are the supporters coming from? I could easily live in a world where there was only Open and Limited, but it seems more fun to be able to shoot a wide variety of guns competitively. I like measuring my skill with these parallel to like guns, and to see if I can attain the same level of classification in all of them. When it comes down to it, I am a Limited shooter, and some would say I don't have a dog in this fight-great, then I am impartial, that means I can be realistic since I have no motives. I'll ask again, what is the motivation against this idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 Well said Mike. As far as your question goes; I'll ask again, what is the motivation against this idea? I am reminded of a quote from Lt. Cmd. Data: "Please continue the petty bickering. I find it....interesting." Some are obviously well meaning in their concern for 'diluting' divisions, whatever that is. Some are happy in the division they now shoot, have seen changes and attendant problems before and do not want a repeat I would surmise, and I suspect most of the concern is well intended by those who want to protect and enhance our sport. IMHO the provisional SS division is a good idea which would make it easier for new shooters to not feel overwhelmed and make it more likely for us to grow. The new shooters perception is the new shooters reality. That a single stack .45 is just as competitive in L-10 as a downloaded Edge is not the point. There are thousands of us shooting USPSA matches every weekend. There are millions of potential members shooting single stack .45's on rare occasions who might be enticed to practice a bit more and eventually join the club if we can help them feel at home shooting with us. Then again, when Benny calls to tell me my open gun is ready I'm going to feel like I just joined the uber elite and I'll just tsk tsk tsk and smile knowingly at all the comotion over nothing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 Dale, Don't tell anyone you saw me shooting a singlestack with 8 round mags at your steel match, it may very well ruin my image(and some may think I am gonna shoot that thing in the new division). It was really fun to shoot it out of a non-presentation cut kydex holster, and I was happy with 2nd Limited, and 3rd overall. We had a great time, and we will be back(and I modified that holster by giving it a presentation cut like my other kydex holsters). I hope you don't go all elitist when you get that new open blaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 I won't tell if you don't let on I'm looking for a bushing barrelled IDPA legal pistol to shoot my left over 38 supercomp rounds in.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 John, I generally shoot Open and sometimes limited just because of the fact that that is where the competition is. It really sucks when you show up for a match with the production gun and find out your the lone ranger. As far as the ITRC I'd love to but it won't be this year. Waiting on the call for Sgt. and buying a house. I'll be lucky to squeeze in Nats. this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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