SingleStack vs. L10

[skeeter]

nope, don't need it and it will hurt L10. i'm with flex on this one we can't bend to everyone.

[PaulW]

I'm no "starving Russian civil servant" so therefore I don't "suggest" to one how to act, what to purchase or how to participate in the process.

Maybe not. Although you'll be the first to stand-up and point out some BS about another guys business practices. And one who lives in a glass house should not throw stonez .

opps....did my spelling throw you off?

[h4444]

Time to ramble a bit......and offer no real endorsement either way but maybe give you something to consider.

I like L10,,,,I like SS. To tell you the truth, everybody is shooting SS matches these days. Heck, we even had one in Iowa. I didn't get to shoot it,,,,was out of town. But we had one,,,,and we had a lot of shooters show up.

And, guesss what,,,,most usually piloted open or limited guns on a normal basis. If those matches weren't SS only matches, what would they have shot, I'm guessing limited or open guns.

I appreciate Gary's efforts but really,,,,is it an issue? I mean if there is room in the rules for a Glocks only match like we see about in Front Sight and we already have other specialty matches popping up like SS matches all over, are we really solving a problem?

OK,,,,now for another perspective......

At the club level, I really like what our club does. We shoot multiple matches per month and we split them across equipment lines,,,,I'm sure this isn't uncommon. The first match of the month is the "racegun" match,,,,,limited and open. The second match of the month is "factory gun" L10, Prod, Revo. And we are now doing the occasional bigger match,,,,we've do a state match all divisions, and we've done a SS match. In addition to the USPSA opportunities we run monthly steel matches and occasionally IDPA and this is a "small" club relatively speaking.

This split helps our club members shoot a wider variety of equipment more often. Would adding another division dilute us at the club level,,,,,well,,,,,part of the year,,,,maybe when we only can run one gun per match. When the weather is nice, we'll run more than one gun in a day,,,,so you're still getting diversity. If you're after diversity of shooting experiences at the club level, there are alternatives to that can be considered at the club level to allow that.

When I view this issue I think of it primarily from a club perspective and thinking about it that way,,,,I see opportunities to shoot a wider viariety of divisions.

How's that for vague and incoherent?

H4444

[kimel]

Adding divisons, even provisional divisions, reminds me too much of a business that is tottering on the brink of going under and then they decide that the way to save the business is to open branches everywhere because expansion is healthy.

Instead of concentrating on what we have and doing it well we are off exploring every nook and cranny and opening a new shop anywhere we think there might be an audience.

And a provisional division just makes this pitching a tent in a parking lot and hoping that enough people show up so we can afford a real store someday.

I do appreciate that the BoD is trying to make positive changes in the sport and I really do hope that I am dead wrong.

My two cents.

[omnia1911]

A SS in L10 is at a disadvantage to the double stacks, therefore, we need to give it special protections with its own division?

Is there truth to that?

Let's see...you aren't shooting your SS in L10 because the double stacks can make faster reloads. Wrong! A reload in to a SS is just as fast as a double stack, it just require you to be more precise...try practicing. You aren't shooting your SS in L10 because your .45 recoils more than the .40, and if I go to a .40 SS I will drop from 10 round mags to 9. Wrong! Ten round SS .40 mags exist, and I doubt if most shooters notice any variation in the recoil of the .45 to the .40, or would have it be a factor in there overall match score. The top percent of the GMs are looking for that edge, no matter how small, and they may shave a few tenths here and there by going with a .40 over a .45. The average shooter? Give me a break.

I know. There has to be a good reason why you, shooting your SS, lost to that guy over there shooting his doublestack, It's gotta be the equipment, it certainly isn't your skills that made the difference, the old violin music plays on and on and on and on....

You say, but we have to use a more practical holster, and we have to put our mags and guns behind our hips, and we have to shoot only 8 round mags. Then its really not about the 1911 SS, its really about its support gear. Maybe we should be more worried about preserving the heritage of the holster, the mag pouch, the 8 round mag, because the 1911 SS is doing fine. It has found a home in L10.

I suspect that many of those that are shooting a widebody, down loaded .40 in L10 are doing so because they can compete effectively in 2 popular divisons with the same gun and mags, and for no other logical reason. The L10 SSers need to quit being intimidated by them.

.....and reasonable course designs it will be the dominant USPSA shooting division.

Gary you have my full support.

Russell Cluver

Match Director 1911 Single Stack Classic

Vice President Single Stack Shooting Society

.....very interesting!

[John Dunn]

Where does Gary say this is to replace or eliminate L-10?

It just gives shooters another option. So if I can reload my double stack 0.2 faster than my SS, I'm going to think the SS division is a more level playing field. I think a SS division will pull shooters from every division, not just L-10. I think it will be popular, just like Tactical division in 3 gun. Plus by using 8 round mags you appeal to the tactical crowd who would vapor lock if asked to compete with a mag sticking out 2 inches from the magwell.

If L-10 dwindles away.....isn't that capitalism?

[jdt]

If attracting new shooters is one of the primary concerns maybe a division could be created just for them. Let them run with whatever equip they have. You only have IDPA gear, no problem. You have a Kahr , great come and play. CAS stuff is welcome too. Whatever. Let them run heads up, no awards with in that division without having to spend money to comply with a particular divisions requirements. Get them out to the matches with quality advertising and let our IPSC/USPSA shooting community do the rest. I can recruit much easier knowing I could bring them out to a match with their present equip then trying to explain what they need to comply. I already have a full right handed CR system set up for the recruits that holds one of my double stacks (I'm lefthanded). I know from my own experience and watching other newbies that once they shoot a match they are hooked and will do whatever it takes to procure their own or proper equip for their division of choice. Call it Rookie Division or whatever just get new people out and shooting without the fear of compliance or competion levels.

I know, another dumb idea that has nothing to do with this thread.

[Flexmoney]

If L-10 dwindles away.....isn't that capitalism?

Naaaah...capitalism is based on a free market-place. Having a single-stack division is protectionism.

[sfinney]

Having a single stack division is catering to a larger customer base...... if we can draw more of those Kimber, SA, SW1911, Sig 1911, and custom .45 owners to our matches by the perception that they would be more competitive, I'd call that smart marketing, not protectionism. The SS 1911 is not going to go away any time soon, and has to be one of the largest shooting enthusiast bases around.

IMHO, and I know its not the goal of the post, I'd be in favor of changing Limited 10 to a SS 1911 division, with "carry" gear. We could still have a sub category of Lim-10 within Limited for those states where full capacity mags are illegal. Since full capacity mags are now available at reasonable costs now, every other type of gun can play in Production, Limited, or Open; why still have Lim 10 except in states that would mandate it?

No matter how much we all know its the shooter, not the song when it comes to wide bodies vs SS in Lim 10, and the perceived advantages of the wide body, or certain calibers, perception IS reality as far as prosepective IPSC shooters are concerned, until we do a better job of marketing. Lets give them a place to shoot.

[John Dunn]

What is the revolver division if not proectionism?

Sure the revolver guys do amzing things, but are they going to win heads up in Production, L-10, Limited, Open?

All of the divisions except Open could be considered protectionism. A SS division is protectionism against widebodies. Production is protectionism from single action triggers and race holsters. Revolver is protectionism against real guns ( ). Limited is protectionism from compensators and red-dots.

Why not protect singlestacks and 8 rd mags and carry type gear?

LONG LIVE PROTECTIONISM! (The concept formerly known as Capitalism!)

[rhino]

Hmmm...

Some are saying that this new division will "dilute" Limited10. My first thought was, "So what?"

It's at least as likely that it will attract and keep brand new shooters. That will be a net positive benefit for USPSA.

Let's say a match has 10 Limited10 shooters. The next month, you have the 1911 division, and half go to it. So you have diluted your Limited10 pool.

Now, the next month, five new shooters come to the match solely because they can shoot in the 1911 division. You now have five in Limited10 (not so good), but you have ten in 1911 Div.

You start with 10, now you have 15. Does it matter which division they shoot as long as we get them involved? Is a match with 50 shooters less attractive than one with 45, because some of the Lim10 shooters are in a different division?

I don't see it as a problem, especially since a lot of people switch divisions frequently.

[omnia1911]

Presently, USPSA is divided into two games; pistol matches and 3 gun matches. They generally require different rules and course design, though there is some similarities between the two. This bifurcation of the organization has been accepted now. Why the fret over running a third type of independent match with rules and course design that mimmicked the SSC?

[diehli]

How many people that have been in USPSA for any length of time have shot only one division their entire career?

The three divisions that I see as well-represented are Open, Limited, and Production. Comparatively, L10 and Revolver are flops. What's the problem with a 6th division that will draw people in and, potentially, become a success like Production?

Is the problem that the singlestack—and I contend that it should be ALL singlestacks, not just 1911s—division is designed as a starter division to draw people in and you want to keep it a "good ol' boy's club?" Is the problem that you won't shoot it, so it shouldn't exist? Is the problem that you just don't like change?

If you want to preach inclusivity, you better damn well practice it. I'm sure that doing an analysis of what handguns are sold in gun stores would show that the number one seller in terms of how they fit into USPSA divisions is Production guns, with the number two seller being 1911s in .45. We're getting some of the people that buy Production guns into USPSA (it could be more, but marketing's... uh... weak), but aren't necessarily getting the 1911 guys. You say Limited 10 is their division. They don't see it that way. They've already got the 8-round mags, can get a holster and mag pouches for an outlay of $60, and can show up and just shoot in Limited 10, but as soon as they see the guys using their downloaded Limited rigs, there's going to be a perceived equipment deficiency. If you want to tell them that they're wrong about the deficiency before they're even in the door, please go find another shooting sport to be an ambassador of. Don't preach inclusivity and practice exclusivity, you just make everyone involved with USPSA look like an asshat.

I'm gonna stop now before this becomes a rant on religion.

[schoonie]

I don't understand why this discussion always seems to end up on Sacred ground!

I agree with Rhino, what's the big deal with dilution?, the same number of shooters are still shooting! Could it be a selfish desire to be able to shoot against all the best at the same time? For instance an open only match? You just can't simultaneously compete with TGO(Limited), TJ(Open), Sevigny(Production), or Jerry(Revolver). I say get over it!!!!!

Someone made the point that I believe was the most important; there might be an opportunity to get the endorsement and support of some major manufacturers out there that are not presently represented. This is vital! There also just might happen to be a new shooter out there who might enjoy the division and stay in the game with the rest of us.

I ask you, is this a bad thing?????

[rhino]

schoonie is smart!

Gorilla ... for what it's worth, Lim10 is very strong here in Indiana. It jockeys back and forth with Limited and Production for the most number of shooters at our matches. Open and Revolver are hurting at some of our clubs, especially at WVPPS where we only get 1-3 open shooters in a match and usually no wheelies.

[diehli]

schoonie is smart!

Gorilla ... for what it's worth, Lim10 is very strong here in Indiana. It jockeys back and forth with Limited and Production for the most number of shooters at our matches. Open and Revolver are hurting at some of our clubs, especially at WVPPS where we only get 1-3 open shooters in a match and usually no wheelies.

Hrm... this is interesting: http://www.uspsa.org/cgi-bin/db_class_summary.cgi

I guess there's a bit of a misconception on my part. Production seems to have a more prominent place in major matches, but not overall within USPSA. I was wrong... there's a first time for everything.

[chp5]

Having a single stack division is catering to a larger customer base...... if we can draw more of those Kimber, SA, SW1911, Sig 1911, and custom .45 owners to our matches by the perception that they would be more competitive, I'd call that smart marketing, not protectionism. The SS 1911 is not going to go away any time soon, and has to be one of the largest shooting enthusiast bases around.

IMHO, and I know its not the goal of the post, I'd be in favor of changing Limited 10 to a SS 1911 division, with "carry" gear.

+1

Well said.

[smokshwn]

Hmmm, CDP for USPSA, sounds interesting.............

Posted with sincere levity in mind.

However in all seriousness, it may just be a great time to woo a significant number of disgruntled IDPA shooters over. That's assuming the current rules crisis continues.

Craig

[jessej]

All your hi-cap mag are belong to us

[EricBudd]

I don't have a problem with a 'single stack' division (though I think Limited 10 is fine), but the division should be open to all single stack 45's. There is no reason not to allow SIG 220's and the Ruger 90/97/345. If you get beat by a DA gun, you need to pratice more. :-)

[chp5]

I don't have a problem with a 'single stack' division (though I think Limited 10 is fine), but the division should be open to all single stack 45's. There is no reason not to allow SIG 220's and the Ruger 90/97/345. If you get beat by a DA gun, you need to pratice more. :-)

Agreed. I think IDPA CDP is the same and allows all single stacks.

[Flexmoney]

Folks,

I get new shooters asking questions...all the time..

When they tell me they have a single-stack 1911, I let them know that that gun is perfect for Limited 10.

And, it is.

[spook]

Sorry to butt in on this, but I have a question.

Is it possible to win L-10/make GM in L-10 with a gun and rig that meets all the proposed requirements for the Provisional division (given that you can use 10 round mags)?

[sfinney]

Folks,

I get new shooters asking questions...all the time..

When they tell me they have a single-stack 1911, I let them know that that gun is perfect for Limited 10.

And, it is.

It is, most of the time - it is the best place for them to start, with their current equipment. Until they show up and get their butt kicked by a GM or M shooting a downloaded SV or STI in full race gear..... sure it was the shooter that won, not the equipment, but the perception is that to be that good, you must need all of that high dollar equipment. And then they don't come back, because they wanted to shoot their gun, not have to get a mortgage to buy a new rig "to be competitive".

Upon furher reflection, I guess Lim-10 does not need to be deleted, and a new SS Divison added... just change the name of Lim-10 to Lim-8, and enforce Production gear.

[sfinney]

Sorry to butt in on this, but I have a question.

Is it possible to win L-10/make GM in L-10 with a gun and rig that meets all the proposed requirements for the Provisional division (given that you can use 10 round mags)?

Yes.