SingleStack vs. L10

[SteveZ]

It does not serve the intended purpose.

Just out of curiousity...what is the "intended purpose" that isn't already being served by L10.

[diehli]

Comp-Tac Beltfeed!!!

[Jim Norman]

Omina,

If we are going to set up a seperate match just so the SS guys have a lace to play, this is doomed to failure.

Any division in USPSA must be entirely compatible with all the others. I am one of the people that sets up a match and I think i can speak for many that it isunlikely that we are going to A) set up our stages so that they are maxed out at 24 rounds or set up a complete different match.

I am not opposed to the new division, although I am also less than estatic about it. I feel that we are diluting the competition too much.

We have Open, Limited, L-10, Production and Revolver. Production is the place for DA guns, L-10 works for Single Stack as well as for those that are unfortunate enough to live in HI, NY, Calif and a few other places. Many people made M sooting a SS when there was only Open and Limited.

I have a friend that puts it this way: "I can beat you with a musket" It all boils down to PRACTICE!

Now, all this being said, What is the reason for the new division? We could put in an equipment position rule in L-10. I have watched sub 1 second draws from production holsters, so race gear or not is not really the question, Where you put your mags matters not. Put them where you want and practice. If you put your mags at the hip bone point and work back, and then PRACTICE you won't have a problem.

Watching the people that win L-10 locally it is not the reloads that win, but it is the overall performance on the stage that counts. If you don't hit the targets fast, If you waste movement between positions, no matter how easy your gun is to reload or how fast you are at reloading, you are still not winning.

All said, as long as I don't have to run a seperate match, go for it.

Jim

[omnia1911]

I'm not in agreement that recognizing the 1911 SS requires its own division. I believe that the problems associated with meshing a SSC style format into the USPSA rules is far more perilous than having some kind of special recognition/award/category for the 1911 SS within L10 division structure.

Competing for both L10 and special 1911 SS awards in the same division would give an incentive for a shooter to choose the 1911 SS platform. 1911 SS manufacturers could step up to the plate to offer these special awards and monetary incentives, if they were truly interested in promoting their products.

Jim,

I'm only advocating seperate matches because I believe that is the only way to make the idea of a SSC style match mesh with the USPSA rules.

[Bear1142]

As much as I like the idea of a SS only class, I can't support this idea. It will only dilute the divisions more. Like Flex jokingly stated (at least he sounded like he was joking) "When's the Glocks only Division coming?" Why are 1911's so special? How about making it a sub-division of Production. There would be a high SS award within Production. Restrict them to Production Division rules (or SS society rules), let'm make major/minor, but keep the mags at 8 rounds. I'd go head to head against a major 1911 with 8 round mags with a Production gun with 10 rounds mags in minor. Otherwise, drop it.

Erik

[Chuck D]

Thanks Shred !

"affirmative action for 1911's" ...where have I heard THAT before?

those that so forcefully wanted to change L10 and make it a SS only Division get the chance to build their own Division. For their sake...I hope it works out wonderfully. If it doesn't...then I don't want to hear anymore "we need a SS only Division" complaints.

I'll help 'em out though, just to show I'm a good "sport" , if my club runs one (and I'm SURE they will...I'll break out my old Combat Commander and give it a try or two.

[AikiDale]

Well,,,,,,,,,,,

In most 'Practical' shooting scenarios there is only one miscreant who needs killin' and that happens in fewer than 10 feet. So that makes your idea of a division for the SAA a good one! I'll vote for it if we don't have to wear Victorian period costumes.

Meanwhile, back to the topic. Many real people carry single stack .45's for personal protection. After being sold on the wonder nine many LE and Military Units are reverting to the .45 (if I can believe the gun rags). It makes sense to have a place where real people can play with the guns real people carry from a marketing standpoint, which is where I believe we started this thread so I am all for it. I also have a production gun, a limited gun and an open gun. I don't care which game you come up with, shooting is just plain fun!

[Flexmoney]

[me setting aside my Forum Administrator hat]

Provisional?!?!? yeah...right. How are you gong to giveth...then taketh away???

Folks, if this goes thru...it is a new division. Whether that is the intention or not. Being a new division...it comes with everything that goes with it. People will buy equipment just for this division. And, if the division doesn't work out...these people will be upset.

If it does work out, then it will be at the expense of the other 5 divisions, especially Limited 10.

Limited 10 is currently one of the largest (if not THE largest) divisons at the clubs I shoot at. It won't be for long. Those shooters will be split into seperate divisions. How can that be a good thing?

Those of you that shoot at clubs were Limited 10 isn't strong now...(pardon my bluntness)...what the hell are you doing wrong?!?! Promote L10 as being the place for single-stacks and the shooters will come. I know they will, because I promote it that way every single day!

For any BOD members that may read this...I can't stress this enough...make it easy for me to sell USPSA to new shooters. Diluting the divisions doesn't do that.

Oh...what about my idea of a "Glock Only Division? Why not? There are soooo many Glock guns out there...and Glock might step up and add more support to the division. Some might say that Glock is already strong in Production Division (as single-stacks are in L-10), but I think we will see that the top of the score sheet in Production will be dominated by CZ over the next couple of years. (Well, except for Dave Sevigny...who is to Production what Robbie is to L-10 )

[Jim Norman]

Kyle,

You say it all well.

L-10 is the place for Single Stack, Heck I started out shooting a SS .45 when Limited-10 didn't exist. Yes, I eventually bought a widebody or several, but that is not germaine to the discussion. We have a place where SS can play. You can race your SS or shoot it pure stock. Use a carry holster or a race holster, use 10 rounders or 8 rounders.

We don't mandate a special course design for revolvers, why should we doo so for SS?

Get off your rearends and promote the sport we already have. We tell our nerw shooters, what ever you own is fine, don't go out and buy anything.

#1, Learn the safety rules

#2, learn how to move through the COF.

#A which puts this ahead of the others, know basic gun handling safety and know haow to shoot your gun. If you can't hit a target at 15 yards standing still with whatever gun you own, all the equipment in the worls will not make you competitive.

Jim Norman

[Irishlad]

IMHO, this is worth a "hearty" try at gaining new members and increasing shooting.

If it fails, i.e. splits existing members into another division, you still have them in the organization and can merge them back into L-10. No doubt, some would become angry, but you know you are going to gain some...lose some/gain some.

Although a single stack division can be constued as an attempt to "save" a design, in reality it's estimated that 1911 sales are about 80,000 to 100,000 per year, probably over 80% in singlestack 45. That's not a bad "market" to go after since this increasing market with more manufacturers than ever, is for all practical purposes(no pun intended), excluded due to comps, mag capacity, production rules, etc.

L-10 works. But, if you have a new shooter that wants to win competitions, sport shooting...not practical stuff, after you give him "it's the indian and not the arrow", "spend your money on ammo", etc...are you going to suggest a wide 40 or a singlestack 45?

I'd go with the SS rules although I would keep it to 45 ACP for major, minor for others and no tungston rods. It doesn't get any simpler than that, no discussions on weighted guns, 40 vs 45, long- short, etc. Buy one in any gunshop, if you don't already have one of the millions that are out there, and go shoot.

Of course, I'm often wrong.

[bigsapper]

IMHO, this is worth a "hearty" try at gaining new members and increasing shooting.

If it fails, i.e. splits existing members into another division, you still have them in the organization and can merge them back into L-10. No doubt, some would become angry, but you know you are going to gain some...lose some/gain some.

Although a single stack division can be constued as an attempt to "save" a design, in reality it's estimated 1911's sales are about 80,000 to 100,000 per year, probably over 80% in singlestack 45. That's not a bad "market" to go after since this increasing market with more manufacturers than ever, is for all practical purposes(no pun intended), is excluded due to comps, mag capacity, production rules, etc.

L-10 works. But, if you have a new shooter that wants to win competitions, sport shooting...not practical stuff, after you give him "it's the indian and not the arrow", "spend your money on ammo", etc...are you going to suggest a wide 40 or a singlestack 45?

I'd go with the SS rules although I would keep it to 45 ACP for major, minor for others and no tungston rods. It doesn't get any simpler than that, no discussions on weighted guns, 40 vs 45, long- short, etc. Buy one in any gunshop, if you don't already have one of the millions that are out there, and go shoot.

Of course, I'm often wrong. 

Not being a USPSA member (but an IDPA member) I won't try to interject my opinion on what rules/guidelines should be in force.

I will say that this post makes a tremendous amount of sense to me and I'm eagerly awaiting the implementation of this division.

[SteveZ]

Seems like a lot of people are mesmerized by the forest but can't see the woods regarding a single stack division....lots of comments like "good excuse to shoot my single stack". Well I hate to break the news...but there is already a division you can shoot your single stack in...and you don't have to wait any longer...its called Limited 10...perhaps you've heard it mentioned before!

What is a specialized single stack division going to provide that Limited 10 doesn't already accomplish? You can shoot your single stack TODAY...using production gear if you want...and 8 round mags if you want....and do it in L10! Later if you want to get more specialized equipment...you can...or just stay with the stuff your using. Everyone's already mentioned that production gear doesn't make that much difference in the end.

The way I see if...IF there is a new division (provisional or stand alone) it will only serve to dilute Limited 10 (is THAT what we really want to happen?). Either it will consume Limited 10 or Limited 10 will consume it. 5 years from now...one of them won't be around.

Gary mentioned previously L10 is off the table and that this is new...but as I see it...this is a direct attack in the long term against L10.

Limited 10 is already the single stack division.

[chuckbradley]

I am a close friend to Gary. I tell him every chance I get that L10 should be turned into a 1911 division. He says no way and argues his side very strongly. So you implying that he is trying to kill L10 is completely wrong.

Fact is we all want to shoot something that is competitive in any division. Right now shooting a full blown limited gun in L10 is the most competitive. Nobody wants to shoot a 1911 45 against those guns. There are so many reasons, recoil, reloading etc. There are allot of shooters, new and old, who would like to shoot a 1911 45 with 8 round mags like we used to.

If you are so sure that L10 is so much better than why are you so worried?

I agree in 5 years one of them wont be around. I personally dont see the need for L10. I keep telling myself that I need to shoot L10 since it isnt as competitive and I am only master class. I just cant bring myslef to go that route. I believe L10 is just dividing the competitive base shooting limited guns so more people can win. Those that cant compete in Limited go to L10. Even though I cant compete in Limited anymore I still wont go L10. Give me 1911 division and I may try that. With the sunset of the ban why are we doing L10 anyway? Because of a few states? Will let them shoot L10 why force the rest of the county to shoot L10 or to recognize L10 at bigger matches diluting resources such as prizes or trophy monies among the rest.

This may not be popular with some but it is reality.

[JFD]

In reality, L-10 already offers a place for those untold hordes of SS owners who are supposedly looking for a place to shoot them. If they haven't shown up already, are they really going to show up with a "SS Only" division? My thinking is that if they are too "timid" (or whatever the reason) to try their SS in L-10, then they aren't going to be able to handle shooting in a mixed division squad either. I hope I'm wrong. All the equipment and equipment placement discussed here is already legal in L-10.

What's up with all these rules suggestions? The division should(IMHO) have equipment rules that basically mirror Production with the exception of limiting mag capacity to 8 rounds (to maybe draw non-1911 SS owners). If a person wants to position their holster and mag pouches wherever they want, then they should shoot L-10. Same thing goes for race rigs. If there isn't a clear difference between this division and L-10, then what's the point? Of course keep major/minor scoring or we'll have something as stupid as folks shooting 10mm Delta Elites in ESP with bird fart PFs.

All calibers should be limited to the same number of rounds. Give people the option of loading up their 10 round .38 Super/9mm mags to capacity and I doubt you'll see any .45 shooters in the division if the best they can have is 8+1. Next thing you know we'll "have" to have a ".45 Only/SS Only/I'm Just A Pain In The Butt" division.

I don't agree with any of the suggestions that some other sport's rules should be incorporated in the new division. Do we really want to advertise what will only be a pathetic and transparent attempt to copy another shooting sport? This is USPSA and we should be proud of it.

I don't think this division will do anything for the sport besides give the dedicated and happy current L-10 shooters a break from freaking out over the "change L-10 to CDP Jr" ideas. Right now that's important enough to me and I know several folks here would agree.

I currently shoot a SS Kimber in L-10 with a race rig. I have an "outlaw match" rig that could be configured to the new division, as well as an IDPA rig that I guess would be ready to go. With that said, I wouldn't even think of shooting the new division as I don't see the point of it.

Of course I'm guessing I don't represent the mainstream of USPSA.

[SteveZ]

Well for the record...I wasn't implying that Gary is trying to kill L10 because I know thats not his intent. What I was trying to point out is that even though it has been said that L10 is safe (i.e. this thread isn't about L10!?!?) ...the truth is....if a SS division is created, it will affect L10 in one form or another in the long haul...either L10 will consume SS and become larger....or SS will comsume L10 and L10 will be no more.

I'd rather not see L10 sacraficed for a nearly look-a-like division....especially when L10 already provides an outlet for all these single stacks as it is.

Oh yes...I've also already written MV and my Area director (BG) concerning my view's on all of this.

[Chuck D]

Chuck Bradley:

With all due respect...you just don't get it. As simply as I can put it, no one is FORCED to shoot L10 except those States w/o the option of purchasing magazines that exceed 10 rounds in capacity. My Dad is an FFL holder, I can assure you that if I buy a new gun from ANY manufacturer and bring it into NYS, it only comes with a 10 round mag. THIS is why L-10 is still needed and I thank guys like Gary and Rob for understanding this. I'm sure that the USPSA members of the other 4 States effected by State legislation do as well.

Make you a deal...if your willing to break the law and ship me a standard capacity magazine for my SV...I'll drop my opposition to the modification of L10 to a SS only division and GLADLY go back to Limited Division.

As for a SS only Division...the proposal Gary offered and the others are working on will go a long way to "bridging the gap" between IDPA, SSC and USPSA therefore hopefully growing the ranks. If this does not happen as intended...I'll be the first one to call for the end of the "I need a SS only Division" argument.

Instead of continuing the call for L10's demise...why not channel that energy into supporting, participating in and growing the provisional division so we can keep it?

Just food for thought, If anyone watched the "indepth" version of the confirmation hearings for the new Attorney General, he stated that he's in favor of renewing the Federal AWB ban. The President has said that he'll sign it if it gets to his desk. Wouldn't it be a bitch if USPSA jumped the gun and dumped L10 only to face the possibility of having to re-establish it?

Thankfully, USPSA has proven to be "smarter" than that.

[MoNsTeR]

I really hate being negative, but...

SS will just kill (or at least deeply wound) L10. Judging from the clubs I've shot at (ECO and VAMD sections), most L10 shooters have non-race singlestacks and non-race rigs. Assuming foks are willing to put up with an 8rd limit, those shooters will leave L10 for SS. I'd guess at a typical Aurora match with 70 shooters, you'd have 7-10 guys in SS and 3-5 in L10. At a smaller match you might see just 2 or 3 in each. The dearth of competition in L10 is already frustrating, the availability of SS will make it considerably worse.

(Of course, this is from the perspective of someone who shooters a L10 with a Limited rig because he likes to reload. I'm sure dedicated singlestackers might see the above as a good thing.)

Some suggest this will attact new shooters. Perhaps. I expect a few IDPA shooters will be willing to buy 2-4 more mags and pouches and give it a shot. I seriously doubt, however, that it will help draw new competitors. New shooters stay away because all they know about USPSA is rumor, forum talk, and what little they can glean from our scant website. They stay away because clubs don't provide information on how to get started. In short, we lack new shooters because our marketing effort is nearly nonexistant. How will launching a newbie-friendly division attract new shooters if no one hears about it, or if it's still too hard to find a club and shoot a match?

I appreciate the effort of the BoD, but I feel this is a bad move.

All that said, I have one question. Will this provisional division be recognized at the 2005 Nationals?

[AikiDale]

I need some clarification from some of you who have obviously been around a lot longer than have I. It has been claimed a SS .45 division would 'kill' or 'dilute' Limited-10. Why would it do that and is that a bad thing if it would? (settle down, I do not want to see L-10 go away, please do not take that last question as an attack).

It seems to me USPSA having a divsion for single stack .45's is much more of a distinction than having Limited and Limited-10. I started shooting a SS .45 in limited ten. When registering for my second match I asked if there were a limited 8? Eventually I got the long wide STI and shoot Limited. One local club has two runs per month and if I shoot the second round I load down the limited blaster to ten rounds and use it in l-10. Of course I could use my trusty carry Kimber, but other than a sense of nostalgia why would I? I do marginally better with the wide .40 and since I need all the help I can get I use it.

Back to my original question. How would a SS division dilute L-10? Was it a bad thing when (it was years before my time) Limited was created from Open? Did not Limited 10 dilute Limited? Did Production dilute or kill any division that is no longer around?

From what I have read, our game got started in the desert SouthWest some 30 or 40 years ago as an attempt to see through competition which guns, equipment and techniques work best. When that question was answered we began to split up into various divisions to continue to play. I am fairly sure Flex with a SS .45 could beat me with my open gun ( well...this year). On the other hand, on the same course of fire, would TGO have a higher HF with a SS .45 or a comped, scoped .38 super?

Looking at this another way, I can see where a new division may offer a venue for attracting more shooters. I am having a problem seeing where offering a new shooting opportunity hurts anyone.

[chuckbradley]

Chuck d,

Nothing would stop those in the unfree states from limiting it to 10 rounds themselves to comply with local laws. The argument about the 10 round law just doesnt hold water. What do the open shooters do in these states? If your argument is valid then USPSA must immediately adopt an OPEN 10 Division. L10 is diluting the competitive base for limited guns. Once limited was bigger than Open but with the implementation of L10 and dilution of limited, Open is now the largest field in just about any major match. I know of several who cannot win in limited any longer who have gone to L10 where it isnt as competitive, not because they cant have high caps. In fact if you did a survey and got the real truth I think you will find that most of those that shoot L10 dont do it for reasons of laws restricting capacity.

My belief on L10 has nothing to do with the proposed SS division and I applaud Gary and the other BOD members involved for recognizing and acting on the need for it. I was only trying to show how Gary in no way is making a "direct attack on L10" I would go so far as to say he is trying to save it.

As far as re-establishing it(L10) . I have to add that if the ban is reinstated then we will no longer be having this discussion since we will have to go to a 10 round limit on everything. I just dont think it will happen at least in the next 4 years.

So chuck I think I do get it.

[Chuck D]

Chuck Bradley:

What do us in "unfree" states do if we want to shoot a match like an Area or Nationals outside of our "oppressed zone?'.

Borrow mags?

Is this something YOU would do?

*Side Note- Open 10 is an idea long since ignored by USPSA...NOT by me.

I hope that SS only Division takes off like wildfire...so much so that L-10 is reduced to "category" status in Limited Division. I doubt it will happen but it would be O.K. by me if it did.

The dillusion agrument is a red herring. What truly dilutes USPSA participation is the "I've got mine, screw you if you don't have yours" attitude connected with the "your a sandbagger if you shoot L10 and Production Division because you can't win elsewhere" argument.

Once upon a time when Clark and Plaxco screwed "barrel weights" upon barrels in 1911 pistols they're was the cry,"the IPSC sky is falling" and the death of the "practical" pistol was proclaimed.

Guess what...20 plus years later we're still discussing the same nonsense.

With all due respect...I couldn't care less if I'm the ONLY competitor in L10 division at ANY match. What I DO care about is that I have the "freedom" and "opportunity" to shoot what I want to shoot within the rules without having to break the law to obtain equiptment that is competitive withinthe rules set forth by USPSA. SS guys want the same thing...and now they have their chance to do it just like I do in the "oppressed" zone.

By the way, you never answered my questions. Would YOU break the law and sell me some hi-cap mags so I can be as competitive as the next guy in Limited Division? Do YOU at your shop sell 10 round only mags? Do YOU help dilute the Divisions when YOU sell custom guns that are used in L10 Division?

* edited by author to eliminate the "hurting of feelings" by myself.

Edited January 20, 2005 by Chuck D

[AikiDale]

As far as re-establishing it(L10) . I have to add that if the ban is reinstated then we will no longer be having this discussion since we will have to go to a 10 round limit on everything. I just dont think it will happen at least in the next 4 years.

Time to write your Senators:

Attorney General designate Alberto Gonzales

In written answers to Democratic questions on Tuesday, Gonzales said he supports extending the expired federal assault weapons ban. He also told senators he wants Congress to reauthorize the Patriot Act this year, despite complaints that it is too intrusive.

Please, do not discuss this here. This was in today's papers and I pass it on but no comment is needed other than as it applies to Limited-10 being safe for awhile.

[chuckbradley]

Dale Not to worry. He cant write law without the other 2 branches(Executive & Legislative)being behind him. Just like Bush saying he would sign it knowing it would never get in front of him to sign it.

As far as Chuck D. we kissed and made up.

[Sam]

Gary Stevens, I'm perfectly happy shooting my SS .45 in L-10. I don't particularly care if there is a SS division or not. I just play the game because it's fun. But, there is an important issue for me. I want to commend you and the BOD on the way you are proposing this idea. It's not an easy thing to sell, since some people will love it and some will hate it. And knowing this, your approach is still very honest and forthright. You are doing what you feel is in the best interest of our sport. If the "provisional division" survives, it will do so because sufficient numbers of the membership have chosen to support it. If it dies away, it will do so from lack of interest by the members. The main quality of USPSA that keeps me looking forward to the competition year after year is the integrity of the people I get hang out and shoot with. This is my sport and I'm proud of it. For all of our differences of opinion about rules, we are all of one mind when it comes to our love of the game and the people we play it with. Keep up the good work and let the fur fly if it must. Just remember everybody, it's a damn fine bunch of folks you are priveledged to argue with.

[PaulW]

With all due respect...I couldn't care less if I'm the ONLY competitor in L10 division at ANY match. What I DO care about is that I have the "freedom" and "opportunity" to shoot what I want to shoot within the rules without having to break the law to obtain equiptment that is competitive withinthe rules set forth by USPSA. SS guys want the same thing...and now they have their chance to do it just like I do in the "oppressed" zone.

If this were true then why not just shoot in limited? If everyone in your area has the same problem as you then you would all be on a level playing field (capacity wise). No one is asking you to break any laws.

I feel we have way to many divisions now. Anyone who has put on any kind of match were trophies are awarded know what I mean. The one divison that I "thought" would have promise, L10, was soon extinguished when I found out you could use your hi-cap downloaded to 10 rounds. HUH? Who shoot IPSC that does not own at least one 1911? Most people would love to break out the old 1911 and shoot a few matches with it. Some people would only shoot this division as they are die hard 1911 fans.

[Chuck D]

Paul:

USPSA saw fit to provide me (and others) with a 10 round only Division in which to compete. If I'm the only "shooter" in it...so be it. See the sarchasm here? It's obvious that I won't be the only participant in the Division.

SS only Division might cut into L10. If it does...so what? If the participation isn't there guess what...NO NEED TO PURCHASE AWARDS ! The cost argument is addressed by participationary numbers. No "added" costs involved UNLESS the numbers in the form of participation render award distribution. I've been a match director before...I'm not new to the concept of awards distribution or costs.

What continues to bother me is those NOT in the shoes of those living in"oppresed zones" telling those that do how and what to do in regards to Divisional choices and equiptment purchasing options. I'm no "starving Russian civil servant" so therefore I don't "suggest" to one how to act, what to purchase or how to participate in the process.

SS only Division is a good idea...iron out the details and lets see if it will work. I'd bet that it does. If it doesn't...then we still have L10 to work with.