Luv2rideWV Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 My CRO is telling me there is a prohibition against 32 round stages at Level 1 club matches. Is this true? We are a new club; I have shot USPSA about two years now; he is the "old guy," having done this since the 80's. It has been a while since I've flipped through a rule book, but I have never seen this rule. Can anyone help me out? I just want to create matches that are engaging, satisfying, and keep our guys coming back. Also, he says the 32 round stages intimidates new shooters and might scare some away. Currently, our format has been two, short to medium sized stages capped off with one large stage. The total round count never exceeds 60. So can anyone help with the rule issue and let me know what is appropriate as far as number of stages and round count goes? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadarTech Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 He is incorrect about the rule. Rule 1.2.1.3 states only level III or higher are limited to 32 rounds. As for intimidating a new shooter... That is possible but would the swingers, Texas star, etc not scare them too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadarTech Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 I hit send too quick. A small match, aka a local match, can have as many stages as the shooters and range will support. There is NOT a limit. At my match we do 7 stages once a qtr and most local clubs near us do 5-7 depending on time of year and attendance. As for round count we see 100-170 for locals. One thing you might do is just ask the shooters! The new folks may want to shoot or it could be a $$ thing.... Or a component thing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Tell your CRO to pull the rulebook out of his rangebag and show you where it says that. If he doesn't HAVE a rulebook in his rangebag that tells you something right there. 1.2.1.3 Long Courses: in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. At any level match, course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view. I can find nothing in the current rulebook that limits round count per stage at a level I match--and I do see 32 round stages frequently at local matches. Typical local match around here is 5 stages plus a classifier, with a round count of 100-130. I can understand having some consideration for newbies that may not have a full belt of magazines. Around here most of them are shooting production, and I encourage them to shoot Limited minor until they get more magazines. That way they can load to capacity and get by with fewer mags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 He has it backwards. You can have more than 32 rounds at a level 1 match, but at level II or above, 32 rds is the limit. We do some 40 rd stages from time to time, and even had a couple of crazy 60-ish rounders at a singlestack match (we were allowed to stage magazines, borrow them, load 10-rounders to 8 rounds if we had them, etc.... I think that longer stages are not nearly as intimidating to newer shooters as difficult long-distance shots on steel. a 32+ round hoser stage can be a real hoot for anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 If I hosted a 3-stage 60-rnd match I'm afraid a lot of the regulars at my club's matches would bail. Through trial and error we've discovered that a match with a minimum round count in the neighborhood of 125-135 rnds is just about right. If we do more some of the newer shooters may burn thru 200 rnds with all the make-up shots and that gets kind of expensive when they are limited to buying factory ammo (i.e. new shooters). But if we offer a match with less than 100 rnds minimum the regulars complain that they didn't get to shoot enough. Sometimes that results a 5 stage format match, other times that is a 6 stage match depending on the round count of each stage. Starting last spring after USPSA lifted the restriction of only one classifer stage per L1 match we started offering 2 classifiers per match based on the wishes of our shooters. So usually a couple stages are 30-32 rnds, two stages are in the mid 20's, and then 2 classifiers which gets us more or less to the 125-135 rnd count. Sounds like your CRO-mentor guy is not a fan of 32 rnd field courses... I will say that running a 40-50 or even 60 rnd stage (legal for L1) can be a hardship on the new shooter who only owns 2-3 mags, but if you advertise ahead of time its possible to make arrangements to loan those people extra mags and gear to allow them to finish even that kind of stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Ugh.... Newbies again. I would rather keep my 50+ regular shooters happy by having a high round count match with challenging stages than put on a simple boring match for the newbies. When I researched this game I bought 12 Glock mags and 5 pouches for my belt before I ever set foot on a stage. Nobody built simple stages with no walls, ports, swingers, texas stars etc just because I was new. It was tough at first, as well it should be! Based on our local matches around here I wouldn't even consider attending a 60 round match with a bunch of short courses. Hell, our Monday night indoor league is more rounds than that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Level I and II can have more than 32 rounds, that is only a requirement at Level III and above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 We shoot 60 to 80 rounds on our 3 stage Monday night practice matches. Standards and Classifiers are the only ones less than 20 rounds normally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Ya here most of our stages are 24-32 rounds with the exception of the classifier. I'll take the high round count stages every time. If I am going to spend the day and maybe travel 2-3 hours each way for a match then i would like to put sole rounds down range. Like sarge said cater to your regulars who support the match month after month and don't try and dumb down the stages for the couple new shooters that show up. If the new shooter is intimidated by high round count more complicated stages then there are other sports out there that may be a better for for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Ugh.... Newbies again. I would rather keep my 50+ regular shooters happy by having a high round count match with challenging stages than put on a simple boring match for the newbies. When I researched this game I bought 12 Glock mags and 5 pouches for my belt before I ever set foot on a stage. Nobody built simple stages with no walls, ports, swingers, texas stars etc just because I was new. It was tough at first, as well it should be! Based on our local matches around here I wouldn't even consider attending a 60 round match with a bunch of short courses. Hell, our Monday night indoor league is more rounds than that! I like that attitude. I have to drive at least 1 hr in any direction to shoot either USPSA or IDPA. I want my time and money's worth when the timer goes off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2rideWV Posted September 10, 2014 Author Share Posted September 10, 2014 Thanks to all who replied. I shall arm myself with the truth! I, too, want people to feel like they are getting their money's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) Speaking of getting your money's worth, what is the entry fee for your matches? I'm also with those who desire the longer stages. How is it that the clubs that regularly have them ever grew, when their very own shooters "grew up" in USPSA at those "long stage" clubs? I know some of those folks, and they shoot very well and, more importantly, learned to do it safely. It's more dicey to have someone who learned on short/simple stages go to a match with long courses; they haven't learned how to handle them. Edited September 10, 2014 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Our two local clubs always have long stages. I have not perceived any issues with new shooters. Furthermore, even the less experienced shooter do not seem to have a problem. It seems to me we evolved this way when shooter our typical 4 stage match including the classifier would win the only 32 rounds stage they ended up winning the match. By having more high round count stages seems to allow for a more competitive match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Speaking of getting your money's worth, what is the entry fee for your matches? I'm also with those who desire the longer stages. How is it that the clubs that regularly have them ever grew, when their very own shooters "grew up" in USPSA at those "long stage" clubs? I know some of those folks, and they shoot very well and, more importantly, learned to do it safely. It's more dicey to have someone who learned on short/simple stages go to a match with long courses; they haven't learned how to handle them. 15 bucks 5 stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2rideWV Posted September 10, 2014 Author Share Posted September 10, 2014 Speaking of getting your money's worth, what is the entry fee for your matches? I'm also with those who desire the longer stages. How is it that the clubs that regularly have them ever grew, when their very own shooters "grew up" in USPSA at those "long stage" clubs? I know some of those folks, and they shoot very well and, more importantly, learned to do it safely. It's more dicey to have someone who learned on short/simple stages go to a match with long courses; they haven't learned how to handle them. Pre-USPSA we started out at $10 but dropped it to $5, and some people shot three times; the matches were shorter; sometimes we even shot multi-gun formats. We raised the price back to $10 and pi$$ed off a couple of guys because they thought that was just too expensive; those were also the ones who didn't want to join the USPSA. However, it was always my intention to join the USPSA, and our core of shooters had begun to travel to shoot USPSA with us. The really neat thing is that we have "grown" shooters who - without us - would never have shot USPSA. We have remained with the $10 and 60 rounds for most of this year. The average shooter will shoot twice. This Sunday will make our third official USPSA match. The controversy over my 32 round stages has made me start to rethink our format. I want to remain or become an entertaining good value for shooters while not going in the whole on matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Another thing to consider; how far are people traveling to your match? If many are driving an hr +, make it "worth the drive". IMO, anything less than 150 rds is NOT worth an hr drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I am always interested in how matches and sections are run. The Mid-Atlantic Section has some interesting 'rules'. All matches have the same entry fee schedule and the same prize schedule. Yes, we pay back to the shooters. Match fee is $25. Discount $5 for USPSA Membership and the clubs have the option of additional discounts. We offer a Husband Wife fee of $35, Juniors shoot for $5. Payouts are $30, $20, $12 Match winner, Class Winner and 2nd in class. Most matches are no less than 5 stages one is up to 10! Ours is regularly 7 an d160 or so rounds with shots from reach out and touch to 25-35 yards. Most have no problem filling to or near to capacity.Ask the shooters to design stages, ask the shooters to build them and ask them to stay and put them away. No one gets paid, we all get a great match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 ...Payouts are $30, $20, $12 Match winner, Class Winner and 2nd in class. ... "Class Winner and 2nd in class." Wow! That's unexpected. What classes do you recognize? You get enough class participation that you recognize two deep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 You know the rules now, but don't trounce the old guy too hard...I no longer carry the rulebook in my range bag either, I have it on my phone, easier to search. There are generally three types of shooters. newbies, experienced shooters who do not shoot majors, and experienced shooters who do shoot majors. If you have a lot of guys going to Nationals or Area matches, it might be good customer service to offer stages in the flavor of those matches. OTOH, if you have more guys who like big stages, it might be good customer service to cater to them. More than likely, a good balance will be the best solution for most clubs. The catering to the new shooters should be in the form of a good introduction and safety course. If you cater to "new shooters" with stage design, you will only have new shooters...and eventually no shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 ...Payouts are $30, $20, $12 Match winner, Class Winner and 2nd in class. ... "Class Winner and 2nd in class." Wow! That's unexpected. What classes do you recognize? You get enough class participation that you recognize two deep? Division Winner: $ 30.00 (5 in division) Class Winner: $ 20.00 (3 shooters in class) Second Place: $ 12.00 (8 shooters in class) Third Place: $ 8.00 (15 shooters in class) We pay 2nd on occasion, with 6 Divisions and only 80-90 shooters it is not that common. but it does happen and I think we may have hit 3rd one time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 ...Payouts are $30, $20, $12 Match winner, Class Winner and 2nd in class. ... "Class Winner and 2nd in class." Wow! That's unexpected. What classes do you recognize? You get enough class participation that you recognize two deep? Short answer: 5 in division to pay a division winner; 3 in class within the division to pay the class winner; 8 in class in division to pay 2nd B Production..... We get 70-90 shooters per month at at least four matches, if the weather's good...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Thanks for the replies. I wasn't clear - I was actually curious about typical division/class representation at your matches. An answer like: "we usually recognize 2nd Prod B, 3rd Prod C, Lim A , and Open B" would give me an idea of what people are (or are not) participating in, and who is getting the payout. Our matches are about the same size as yours (70 - 90 participants for most of the year). We run six stages (one of which is a classifier). If turnout keeps increasing as it has been, we'll be adding another stage so that the squads don't get too big. Match fee is $20 (no discounts at this time - maybe for juniors? I can't remember) and there currently aren't any payouts (but it might be something to consider). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Who wins what depends on who shoots what this month. We almost always have division winners in Open, Limited, L-10 and Production, It is much more likely to have class winners in B and C than in A. We get D class in Production on occasion and 2nd B or C in Production. Revolver is very light, usually not more than 3-4, I don't think we have paid Revolver division yet. Single stack make Division often and on occasion a class winner. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2rideWV Posted September 11, 2014 Author Share Posted September 11, 2014 You know the rules now, but don't trounce the old guy too hard...I no longer carry the rulebook in my range bag either, I have it on my phone, easier to search. There are generally three types of shooters. newbies, experienced shooters who do not shoot majors, and experienced shooters who do shoot majors. If you have a lot of guys going to Nationals or Area matches, it might be good customer service to offer stages in the flavor of those matches. OTOH, if you have more guys who like big stages, it might be good customer service to cater to them. More than likely, a good balance will be the best solution for most clubs. The catering to the new shooters should be in the form of a good introduction and safety course. If you cater to "new shooters" with stage design, you will only have new shooters...and eventually no shooters. The old guy is one of my best friends. Without him, I wouldn't be shooting USPSA. He has also been a positive role model in my life because he is competitive, he leads, he served his country, he was successful in his career, he participates in various civic organizations, he is faithful to his friends, so he shows me what a good citizen should strive to be. He is also a type-A personality and by his very nature a little controlling. The fact is that I may still have a little difficulty convincing him that he is wrong - lol. The running of our club has been an excellent adventure and a good experience. As I write this, I am eagerly anticipating the arrival of my issue of Front Sight because our club is mentioned; I will have to save that; we have come so far very rapidly. However - I still want my big stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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