DreGarciaTAT2 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Tonight I shot a match at the Phoenix Rod and Gun club (IPDA). I'm pretty hooked on shooting, and this was a 3 hour round trip. On the way home, my friend and I saw that we, along with our entire squad, were DQ'd because some members of our squad tore down a stage before a different squad shot it. I have a few things I'd like to know: -If this happens, shouldn't they just throw out the stage? - a caveat, this was a two string stage with TWO targets about ten yards away, 12 round total (2 body one head each target each string). Easy to reset. -they re set up the stage, while we were still there, so... Why the DQ? -Why would they DQ the entire squad if we didn't have anything to do with it, AND we were there still? Why couldn't they have just asked us what happened? Any answers, explanations, etc. would be greatly appreciated!! Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Is IDPA really this F'ed up? That is astonishing to DQ an entire squad! But fyi, one of my match helpers tore down a classifier once before the last squad got to shoot it. Amazing how fast it was completely reset when the mistake was realized! lol As far as I know him and some helpers set it back up before the last squad even got there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 That's one club that I would never give any more of my money ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1911 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 That has nothing to do with IDPA and everything to do with a butthead of a MD. The SO in charge of your squad should have also communicated better with the MD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajaholic Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 And last month there was a thread about getting no help for set up tear down... Now you have it and guess what... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Every squad i have shot with in both sports will ask the MD before tearing down if its ok to do so. Sometime they need to be left up for a reshoot or other reasons. I blame the person that was in charge of your squad for not doing so. I don't think there is a written rule on how to address this so the MD can do as he pleases. Your option is to vote with your wallet. Always ask the MD before tearing down if its ok to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Every squad i have shot with in both sports will ask the MD before tearing down if its ok to do so. Sometime they need to be left up for a reshoot or other reasons. I blame the person that was in charge of your squad for not doing so. I don't think there is a written rule on how to address this so the MD can do as he pleases. Your option is to vote with your wallet. Always ask the MD before tearing down if its ok to do so. This! ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreGarciaTAT2 Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 Lots of good points here by multiple people... But it still seems like a real snake-like way to handle it. I really was hoping they broke an actual rule though. I guess no more trips to that club is going to have to be the answer. I was actually about to sign up to become a member... No chance any more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Lots of good points here by multiple people... But it still seems like a real snake-like way to handle it. I really was hoping they broke an actual rule though. I guess no more trips to that club is going to have to be the answer. I was actually about to sign up to become a member... No chance any more! i would not be so harsh on not going back. i put the blame squarely on your SO/SSO for not asking the MD. You may be of the opinion that it was an easy stage to reset, but the MD has been there to setup and do other stuff that people never see. i help out in both sports and if you ever been in the know of how much work go on into putting on even a local match you may change your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreGarciaTAT2 Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 Lots of good points here by multiple people... But it still seems like a real snake-like way to handle it. I really was hoping they broke an actual rule though. I guess no more trips to that club is going to have to be the answer. I was actually about to sign up to become a member... No chance any more! i would not be so harsh on not going back. i put the blame squarely on your SO/SSO for not asking the MD. You may be of the opinion that it was an easy stage to reset, but the MD has been there to setup and do other stuff that people never see. i help out in both sports and if you ever been in the know of how much work go on into putting on even a local match you may change your mind. I understand that,but I regularly help setup and ALWAYS help tear down. The fact that we were there and they didn't even ASK us is what really got me. They could have said 'hey, your squad is gonna get DQ'd for tearing that stage down, unless you set it back up'. Boom, woulda been done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 A lot of the supporting posts sound kind of bitter or spiteful to me. The DQ seems like a reaction that made in anger and haste, not a fair, well-thought-out resolution. I've had to rebuild USPSA classifer stages from scratch after a "helpful" squad finished early and tore it down. I was annoyed, but never once considered retaliation... that just seems wrong. I blame the person that was in charge of your squad for not doing so. Not familiar with IDPA, is this person appointed or elected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 That is grossly excessive. Depending on the availability of other events, I might or might not cut them off my schedule, but if I went back, it would be the end of me taking down targets for them. Where I do shoot, the call to take down is repeated about three times by the SO or MD before anything is touched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Tompkins Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 That is grossly excessive. Depending on the availability of other events, I might or might not cut them off my schedule, but if I went back, it would be the end of me taking down targets for them. Where I do shoot, the call to take down is repeated about three times by the SO or MD before anything is touched. As a local MD, I agree. In my book only rules / sportsmanship related infractions deserve a DQ. For an honest mistake, the worst you should have gotten was a dirty look from the MD and maybe that stage getting tossed out (if it could not be reset fairly). At any / every match, every shooter should be aware of the number of squads shooting, the rotation order, where you start, and where you finish. If in doubt ask the squad leader to confirm with the MD its ok to tear down. It’s a process, humans are involved, mistakes will happen. However, vindictive behavior is not called for when honest mistakes happen. Now if a group of shooters took down a stage in order to get it thrown out, that is poor sportsmanship and everyone involved would be subject to a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 That is grossly excessive. Depending on the availability of other events, I might or might not cut them off my schedule, but if I went back, it would be the end of me taking down targets for them. Where I do shoot, the call to take down is repeated about three times by the SO or MD before anything is touched. Now if a group of shooters took down a stage in order to get it thrown out, that is poor sportsmanship and everyone involved would be subject to a DQ. There's the key...how does an MD know if this might have been the case? Remember, the OP's guys were not "locals". I'm not saying this was the case, just that the MD had no way of knowing the reasoning for the stage dismantling. I have shot many matches at PRGC, and I seriously doubt it was simply the MD being vindictive for an honest mistake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Tompkins Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) That is grossly excessive. Depending on the availability of other events, I might or might not cut them off my schedule, but if I went back, it would be the end of me taking down targets for them. Where I do shoot, the call to take down is repeated about three times by the SO or MD before anything is touched. Now if a group of shooters took down a stage in order to get it thrown out, that is poor sportsmanship and everyone involved would be subject to a DQ. There's the key...how does an MD know if this might have been the case? Remember, the OP's guys were not "locals". I'm not saying this was the case, just that the MD had no way of knowing the reasoning for the stage dismantling. I have shot many matches at PRGC, and I seriously doubt it was simply the MD being vindictive for an honest mistake... I only know what the OP said. I live 3k miles away and have no knowledge of anyone involved. However, baised on what was stated, taking the OP at face value, I see only two possible reasons for the DQ: 1) The MD was pissed off and wanted to punish the offenders 2) The MD suspected some neferious activity but could not prove who was the bad actor (or maybe not even if there was ill will involved) so he punished everyone in the area just because. Your response "seriously doubts" its not the first reason, which only leaves the second reason, unless you can offer an alternative rationale? No matter what the reason, IMHO he owes everyone at the match (or at least those DQ'd) an explanation, out of commom curtesy and as teaching / learning moment for everyone there. If I was DQ'd because someone on my squad was caught cheating and it was assumed I was part of / benifited from it but in realty was not / did not, sure I'd be butt hurt about it and pissed off to the max, but at least I'd know why. This also begs the question to the OP, did you ask the MD why? What did he say? Edit to add: To your direct question, as an MD, if I suspected cheating I'd find out who started / directed the tear down then see how those shooters performed on the stage and if tossing the stage would have materaially effected the top finishers. I'd give serious consderation to a DQ if I could not reset the stage in a fair manner. Edited July 30, 2014 by Rob Tompkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreGarciaTAT2 Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 Apparently after talking directly to the match director... This happened two weeks ago (completely different group of guys) and he was 'making an example'... [emoji19] Eh, not cool in my book. The thing that really chaps me is that everyone did shoot it, it was a simple reset... I wonder what they do for actual cheating! Lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 That would seem to indicate the MD is similiar to the orfice located on the South end of a donkey facing North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 "Making an example".... wow. No good deed goes unpunished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Ridiculous, petty, and a great example about how the open endedness of IDPA rules opens the door for these type of events. If the stage couldn't be rebuilt then throw the stage out of the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Gonsalves Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 That has nothing to do with IDPA and everything to do with a butthead of a MD. This seems to be the problem! It's not an IDPA problem or rule! If it happened before, why not explain at the shooters meeting the proper method of checking that ll have shot the stage before tear down. That said, "shit happens" rebuild the stage (which seems like it would be easy) or throw it out. I was at a match recently and after we finished our last stage I checked with the scorekeepers to see if we could tear down. He said there were scores for all shooters, "ok to tear down". Just about the time we were finished putting everything away the MD walks into the bay to shoot the stage! He gave us the stink eye pretty good until we explained the scorekepper gave us the ok (this clubs policy is to check with the scorekeeper). It was a simple stage, we rebuilt it in less than 5 minutes, he shot and we tore it down. No big deal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I've skipped going to place for months for something less than that. I'd avoid them for a while. Let them see the other side of what an "being made an example" feels like. But on the flip side, maybe his dog died that day or his $3,000 gun was stolen or something. The whole, we all make mistakes thing. It's up to you to decide. But it sounds like a personal and or club issue, not an IDPA rule problem. (finally!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Doc Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 There are 2 IDPA, 4 USPSA, 1 steel challenge matches in Tucson a month, no need to drive to Phoenix to find a good pistol match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig N Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 We tear down the last stage we shoot when the last shooter on the squad gets done. If a squad has skipped over a stage or something because they didn't wanna wait, they better send someone to tell the SO or it goes in the truck. This is for IDPA It may have changed since they moved 3 gun weekend but we didn't even have to tear down for USPSA because they modded the stages and used them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Apparently after talking directly to the match director... This happened two weeks ago (completely different group of guys) and he was 'making an example'... [emoji19] Eh, not cool in my book. The thing that really chaps me is that everyone did shoot it, it was a simple reset... I wonder what they do for actual cheating! Lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I spoke with the MD about this instance today. Let's just say there's a good bit more to the story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreGarciaTAT2 Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 Apparently after talking directly to the match director... This happened two weeks ago (completely different group of guys) and he was 'making an example'... [emoji19] Eh, not cool in my book. The thing that really chaps me is that everyone did shoot it, it was a simple reset... I wonder what they do for actual cheating! Lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I spoke with the MD about this instance today. Let's just say there's a good bit more to the story... I imagine so... I talked with him... He squared us away and put is back in as 'non-offenders'... Which is good, because I pulled a stage win out. [emoji41] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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