RO Suspected of Cheating in USPSA Matches

[deerassassin22]

So what about the shooter that seems to have benefitted the most from this? There have been trips to the prize table, STI contingency and state championship titles awarded to him, what is happening there?

This is what I'm wondering I beleive they should have to pay back all prize money and prizes. If the prize was a a gun they must pay retail price of the firearm. Then the real winners should be declared and given the money and recoginized on the USPSA website and Front Site.

[JFlowers]

Showing the timer to the scorekeeper is the practice of most ROs. That practice should probably be reinforced in training and/or policy. But I would rather wait and let people with experience write that policy since there are always stages that will make it difficult.

Since most of this allegedly (since I don't know if it did or not) happened on RO day, maybe we need to think about the way we shoot ROs through. I know typically RO Day is a bit looser, with the ROs working out any kinks in the first stage they shoot and typically ROing themselves within the Squad. Maybe a policy of RO Day ROs are fixed to the stage and then shoot with the Shooters rather than ROing in the squad need to be considered. But that impacts the match as you now need additional ROs. I don't think Match Days are as big of an issue since Stage ROs are typically put together groups by skill rather than "friends".

Personally, as an Area 6 shooter I know the parties involved and I am trying to keep any personal opinion, good or bad out of it. Leave it in the hands of HQ. What I would like the hundreds of us who shoot regularly to take away from all this mess is a way to be better tomorrow.

Edited June 19, 2014 by JFlowers

[JakeMartens]

Posted from Chuck Anderson

I just got approval from the BOD to do the actual investigation on this. If anyone has videos, names info whatever, please email them to me at area1@uspsa.org. If you're not comfortable sending it to a USPSA server, stop, take off your tinfoil hat and email it to my personal account at chuck@andersontactical.com. I need the video, native video ideal but I'll take FB or YouTube links if it's not available, and as much info as you can give, shooter name and number, match and stage it came from. I could also use the name and email of the person sending the info to me. If you don't want to give it I understand, but it's going to be prioritized lower than info that comes in with a name associated. I'm going to busy and won't be able to hunt it down spread across FaceBook and various forums.

Thanks,

Chuck Anderson

USPSA Area 1 Director

[cohland]

I'm surprised to see that this sort of misbehavior is even possible. Although I only attend local USPSA matches, we've always used a procedure that would prevent this sort of thing. The RO calls out the time and SHOWS THE TIMER to to assistant RO (Scorekeeper in our parlance) who then repeats the time and writes it on the score sheet. Unless both of them are cooperating in cheating, time cheating is almost impossible.

Chris

It's quite easy unless you look over the timer and splits or really have someone watching the RO.

The RO could hit the back button one time before he shows anyone for guys he likes

The RO could tap the timer on his firearm one time after the last shot is fired for those he doesn't.

Yes, I see your point, thank you for pointing that out. Happily, I've never seen any of that done intentionally, I guess I live in a sheltered world!

Chris

[kooyahdesigns]

That is pretty crazy, I know the timer/ RO issue....how do you stop a shooter from sand bagging? is there a rule for that also?

[JFlowers]

Why would we care if a shooter sandbags? You wanna take 20 secs to run a 12 sec stage and drop 25 places in the results, that's your choice. As for classifier sandbagging, peer ridicule takes care of a lot of that.

[deerassassin22]

^^ I think Sand Baggers, know they are at the bottom of the barrel for doing it.

[Sarge]

This whole thing is just damned ugly. I have always played this game similar to the golf ethics. It is a game of honor. We have shooters who pull themselves out of matches without being required. We have shooters DQ themselves. I have some pretty good friends who RO me and I RO them and we catch each and every procedural, mistake and yes DQ's. Just never occured to me to cheat a guys time even if I thought he was a POS or my best friend in the world.

I for one will not be slowing down matches by challenging each and every time called on me. I am in this game for the pure enjoyment first followed by a little friendly competition. Catching the last split only achieves so much and I agree it will kill throughput on a stage. But I realize there are shooters who have an , "I love me wall" in their basement with each and every one of their wins posted to include a running list of locals probably who will want to make sure they did not get cheated. I guess we need to figure out the fastest most efficient way to let them see the timer and agree to a time because going all the way back and counting shots is not going to be the answer.. "OK shooter I will review each shot for you" "ok I count 29 shots" shooter says, "I only hold 28 in my big stick and I think I barnied up so I guess you got it right, ok we can proceed"

[RussellM]

So what about the shooter that seems to have benefitted the most from this? There have been trips to the prize table, STI contingency and state championship titles awarded to him, what is happening there?

I haven't seen anything formal about any others who may have known or benefited. It's easy to prove that this guy is guilty but not so easy to prove that others were in on it. They get the benefit of the doubt.

So no one thinks that anyone else was involved or knew that they were benefiting from have time shaved from their runs and time added to others that were shooting in the same division? Two guys that traveled together, worked matches together, trained together over several years and it was never brought up over a beer after a trip to the prize table.....

I think it will be harder to prove that he also knew about it, his future match performance should make it fairly clear though I would think.

[DWFAN]

So what about the shooter that seems to have benefitted the most from this? There have been trips to the prize table, STI contingency and state championship titles awarded to him, what is happening there?

This is what I'm wondering I beleive they should have to pay back all prize money and prizes. If the prize was a a gun they must pay retail price of the firearm. Then the real winners should be declared and given the money and recoginized on the USPSA website and Front Site.

You can't calculate the real winners. There is no way to tell how many or who in each match was hosed on their real score. Impossible.

If someone wanted to relinquish their prizes and donate to a Junior program or whatever, then fine. But you can't determine who was actually due the prizes.

[B45C22]

Is the connection between the big board and the timer Bluetooth? Rf?

Seems like someone could make a lot of money coming up with a way to have the timer spit the time directly to the tablet doing the scoring. Have the shooter/scorekeeper approve the time and proceed with target scoring.

[JFlowers]

B45C22,

The issue with the big boards seems to be one of distance and refresh times. I have been told they work good at Steel Challenge where things are pretty static but have issues with field course where there is a lot of movement and distance.

In many ways this is like the whole "gun control" discussion. Do we need new technology and rules to deal with a 0.01% issue? Maybe tweak some procedures here and there, but I think most of us understand that this is an anamoly.

[JakeMartens]

So what about the shooter that seems to have benefitted the most from this? There have been trips to the prize table, STI contingency and state championship titles awarded to him, what is happening there?

This is what I'm wondering I beleive they should have to pay back all prize money and prizes. If the prize was a a gun they must pay retail price of the firearm. Then the real winners should be declared and given the money and recoginized on the USPSA website and Front Site.

You can't calculate the real winners. There is no way to tell how many or who in each match was hosed on their real score. Impossible.

If someone wanted to relinquish their prizes and donate to a Junior program or whatever, then fine. But you can't determine who was actually due the prizes.

I would think that if this was happening and you were not aware that you were benefiting from it and this has come to light you would want to separate yourself immediately from it, come forward and ask to have your scores removed from the most recent matches you were in, but that hasn't happened. Maybe it will once a decision is made by the BoD.

[L3324temp]

I'm surprised to see that this sort of misbehavior is even possible. Although I only attend local USPSA matches, we've always used a procedure that would prevent this sort of thing. The RO calls out the time and SHOWS THE TIMER to to assistant RO (Scorekeeper in our parlance) who then repeats the time and writes it on the score sheet. Unless both of them are cooperating in cheating, time cheating is almost impossible.

Chris

It's quite easy unless you look over the timer and splits or really have someone watching the RO.

The RO could hit the back button one time before he shows anyone for guys he likes

The RO could tap the timer on his firearm one time after the last shot is fired for those he doesn't.

Yes, I see your point, thank you for pointing that out. Happily, I've never seen any of that done intentionally, I guess I live in a sheltered world!

Chris

I've never seen anyone do it purposely, but I have seen timers get bumped after the last shot is fired. It's easy to backup the timer and see a normal series of splits and then a 6 second delay and the final shot (bump).

[RussellM]

Is the connection between the big board and the timer Bluetooth? Rf?

Seems like someone could make a lot of money coming up with a way to have the timer spit the time directly to the tablet doing the scoring. Have the shooter/scorekeeper approve the time and proceed with target scoring.

The scoring system that was being used at the florida Open this year was supposed to be coming out with a Nook type handheld that had the shot timer built into it.

http://mssc.wirtexsports.com/

[Sarge]

Well there you go. If nothing else somebody is going to make money off of this!

[Rob Tompkins]

Wow. A huge list of due process just hit doodie. It's compiled neatly and nicely. Even with a proper title. Video evidence of this volume is staggering when seen in list form.

I count ~75 citations. Some of the last ones may include more than one example. Covers several years, many differnt matches, and many individuals.

[jester121]

I would think that if this was happening and you were not aware that you were benefiting from it and this has come to light you would want to separate yourself immediately from it, come forward and ask to have your scores removed from the most recent matches you were in, but that hasn't happened.

Jake, much like the discussion last year in the 3-gun forum about the guy asking to un-do the match because of an equipment compliance issue, and occasional discussion about 'self-DQ' type things, there is no mechanism in the rules (book or bylaws) I'm aware of to have scores/results changed or stricken this long after the fact.

Not saying it hasn't happened off the books in the past, but it would be outside of the rules we're talking about improving and enforcing.

[alma]

I would think that removal of classifier scores for which he has ROed would be in order but I don't think there would ever be a way to identify them. Even with the video evidence that has been provided it isn't comprehensive as to allow for forensic reconstruction of stage times for major matches for which this guy ROed. No, I think the only thing they will be able to do is give him the boot and everything else will have to stand as is. Perhaps you can add an asterisk in the record book for those matches or something, not that a record book exists per se.

Edited June 19, 2014 by alma

[deerassassin22]

So what about the shooter that seems to have benefitted the most from this? There have been trips to the prize table, STI contingency and state championship titles awarded to him, what is happening there?

This is what I'm wondering I beleive they should have to pay back all prize money and prizes. If the prize was a a gun they must pay retail price of the firearm. Then the real winners should be declared and given the money and recoginized on the USPSA website and Front Site.

You can't calculate the real winners. There is no way to tell how many or who in each match was hosed on their real score. Impossible.

If someone wanted to relinquish their prizes and donate to a Junior program or whatever, then fine. But you can't determine who was actually due the prizes.

Never thought of that good point. I would say if a guy known to be cheating won anything it go to the next person in line if that make sense.

Edited June 19, 2014 by deerassassin22

[Graham Smith]

This whole business is just sad. I know that some people take this sport more seriously than others, but I never expected to see something like this.

[D.Hayden]

This whole business is just sad. I know that some people take this sport more seriously than others, but I never expected to see something like this.

+1

[Fast351]

The shooter also needs to review the times of last split if they want to keep the RO honest.

Agreed. There are too many ways for an RO (anyone holding the timer) to cheat, by either flicking/tapping the timer to add time, or covering the mic on last few shots to reduce time, etc. I for one will be asking to see me last shot AND my last split at all matches (both Majors & locals) from here on out. I think all 3 people at the end of the stage (Timer RO, Clipboard RO, & shooter) should review the time visually & verbally OUT LOUD for all to witness. And regardless of admission into arbitration or anything else, anyone who videos another shooter should ALWAYS make sure to keep the camera rolling long enough to hear the time called out loud. It may not stand up in an arb, but it goes a long way in the court of public opinion. IMHO

I guess at major matches it may not be a bad idea to verify the ROs skillset with the timer, but at least for me, at local matches, I know just about everyone at the match and certainly the people ROing. I'd like to think I know them well enough to know they're ethical.

Hell, when I'm running people I have the timer behind me to let the scorekeeper record before I even look at it, and the scorekeeper taps my arm with a pen to know they got it, then calls it back to me.

I can see where major matches might benefit from scoreboards. Heck, if anything it makes it more interesting for the rest of the squad to watch the shooter when they can see their time/splits live.

[deerassassin22]

I would be a fan of the Jumbo Clock that would be cool to see as FAST351 Noted above.

[ktm300]

Reality and big clocks don't mix.

So it's a 32 round stage and you only get 28 because you had to go around something and missed 4 shots.

So the big clock doesn't pick up the last shot (seen it happen) and now the shooter wants the time on the big board.

What do you do when they don't work, stop the stage and fix it? If you have never run a stage in a big match you just don't understand the time pressure. We have plenty of stuff to think about and make work.

I can go on and on but it will cause more issues than it solves.

This is pretty simple. Towards the end of the stage get the timer out in front in your peripheral vision so you can kind of see the numbers change. That way you know you are picking up each shot. As you give IYAFULSC glance at the timer and then put it behind you where the scoreboard guy can see it and the guy racking his slide won't trigger it. Then after RIC look at the timer, verify it has the same time on it you saw when you glanced at it and call the time. Have the scoreboard guy call it back to you.

I know lots of shooters that RO. I do between 3 and 5 majors a year. I, for one would not RO if I could not shoot the match. If you put RO's on the stage for RO day you add a ton to the cost of putting on the match and don't solve much.

I am shocked by this issue. If proven (it seems to be a done deal) he should be banned for life from USPSA. Letters should be written to every major shooting sport letting them know what happened. If I was the main guy that was helped over the years (No way I would have known or I would have stopped it). I would figure out what I had won in the matches and send a check to USPSA to do with as they see fit.

I can't imagine cheating to win at something I do for fun.

Thanks to the person that did this for sucking a lot of fun out of a sport I love.