Game changer

[Luv2rideWV]

I'm confused. I miss the days of the 6-shot revolver. Are we pretty much saying that the 6-shot guns are not comparable to the 8-shot guns statistically? For any given shooter, is the 8-shot competitor getting more credit than he deserves because of the equipment advantage? Does the low overall number of revolver competitors skew our classifications (GM, M, A, etc...)?

Please, use simple words...

[mcb]

I'm confused. I miss the days of the 6-shot revolver. Are we pretty much saying that the 6-shot guns are not comparable to the 8-shot guns statistically? For any given shooter, is the 8-shot competitor getting more credit than he deserves because of the equipment advantage? Does the low overall number of revolver competitors skew our classifications (GM, M, A, etc...)?

Please, use simple words...

USPSA has only been allowing 8-shot since the new rules came out it February so there is not a ton of data yet. That said at the Revolver Nationals it did appear that 8-shot Minor revolver shooters had a noticeable equipment advantage over 6-shot Major revolver shooters.

A lot more discussion of that here:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=194861

It is likely that the 6-shot Major guns are not comparable to the 8-shot Minor guns

As for classifiers they are all setup for 100% Hit Factors based on shooting the stage with a 6-shot Revolver. For the most part shooting an 8-shot Revolver does not effect the achievable Hit Factor (for a given shooter/skill-level) but for a few classifiers, that have 8-shot arrays, the 8-shot revolver eliminates one or more reloads allowing a shooter to get a very high percentage Hit Factors, significantly higher than they would have had the used a 6-shot revolver that would have forced extra reloads. This could allow a shooter to advance his classification well above their actual skill level if they shoot several of those 8-shot friendly classifiers using a 8-shot Minor revolver.

[revoman]

I shoot all alphas anyway, so the extra 2 shots are pretty advantageous

I have heard that, "If your shooting all alphas you're not shooting fast enough."

What is the purpose of shooting fast if you can't hit what you are aiming at. Yes I can shoot faster and drop some alphas which is okay shooting major. But shooting minor or ICORE you better be all a's or all your fast shooting is for not.

[pskys2]

Until the last few series of Classifiers, the high HF was set as a percentage of Limited, then they went with true scores and with few real GM's at the time the HHF was too reachable. The number of GM's have been climbing and there have always been a few (not to leave anyone out but Jerry, Matt, Cliff and Dave have been there for quite a few years, Rich and Josh a bit later and now a new influx such as TGO and others may make it more likely to have some good HHF's even with 8 shot).

So yes, the low amounts have led to skewed classifications, and now with 8 shot some HHF are way too easy to reach. The positive thing is there are more true GM's shooting Revo now, so it may improve in the future. And a club classifier shouldn't be an issue if you don't want it to be. Just shoot your 8 shot as if it were 6 on the classifiers and all will be well.

[thermobollocks]

Quite plainly, if a 627 worked well in prod or l10, you'd see more of them.

I think I was the only idiot in eastern Colorado campaigning a 627 in L10. Now with the rules change we had 10 revo shooters shooting 8 shot guns at the Rocky Mountain 300, more than L10 or single stack.

Hehe, I rolled a 327 a couple times in L10, along with my Sig 1911 with night sights. I shoot L10 in practice for He-Man, or when I don't feel like running with the 6 shot.

Now I'm sad that I wasn't a bad enough dude to bring my 8 shot to the 300.

[pskys2]

Quite plainly, if a 627 worked well in prod or l10, you'd see more of them.

I think I was the only idiot in eastern Colorado campaigning a 627 in L10. Now with the rules change we had 10 revo shooters shooting 8 shot guns at the Rocky Mountain 300, more than L10 or single stack.

Hehe, I rolled a 327 a couple times in L10, along with my Sig 1911 with night sights. I shoot L10 in practice for He-Man, or when I don't feel like running with the 6 shot.

Now I'm sad that I wasn't a bad enough dude to bring my 8 shot to the 300.

Yes, would the 300 with a Revo be considered an Iron Man Match?

[thermobollocks]

Scandium Man

[PatJones]

Yes, would the 300 with a Revo be considered an Iron Man Match?

It's not that bad. With the restrictions on magazine location, I think the single stack and production guys have it worse than us. They had magazines all the way across their back.

I only got to my 10th moon clip once and only needed one round out of it.

[Jaxshooter]

People say the 8 shot revolvers have killed the 625. I think Smith and Wesson killed the 625 when they eliminated the 5" barreled version.

[71Commander]

At club level matches shoot your 6-shooter in Revolver division to keep an 8-shot friendly Classifier from artificially boosting your classification percentage and then shoot your 8-shooter in Production and embarrass the bottom feeders!

I can't legally do it. I have an extended cylinder release and a hammer with the spur cut off.

[Carmoney]

People say the 8 shot revolvers have killed the 625. I think Smith and Wesson killed the 625 when they eliminated the 5" barreled version.

Excellent point. The gun that everybody seems to want to protect was discontinued seven years ago!

Edited June 19, 2014 by Carmoney

[dcloudy777]

People say the 8 shot revolvers have killed the 625. I think Smith and Wesson killed the 625 when they eliminated the 5" barreled version.

Excellent point. The gun that everybody seems to want to protect was discontinued seven years ago!

I found a 5" 625 about two years ago... for a heck of a lot less than I seem to able to find a 627 right now.

Most of my complaints about Minor 8 is just personal sour grapes.

[BillR1]

Is there really THAT much difference between a 4 inch and a 5 inch 625?

(I've never shot USPSA in revolver so take that for what it's worth)

Edited June 19, 2014 by BillR1

[MWP]

You don't think so when you shoot a 4". But if you spend some time with a 5 inch and then go shorter, you'll notice it right away.

Sight radius, weight, balance, the 5" is the bomb. Now it's an extinct bomb.

[Stlhead]

Lucky for you there are a lot of 4" and 5" 625's that will be available for sale at a GREATLY reduced price!

[thermobollocks]

I dig my 4", but I've not had a 5" 625. My 327 is a 5", but it's scandium so it swings like a dream, and the gold bead sights differ enough from the flat black ones that I don't know how to make an equitable comparison.

Edited June 20, 2014 by thermobollocks

[Bosshoss]

I just don't get this 4" VS 5" thing. I used to shoot a 5" 625 and still use it for dryfire practice to keep wear and tear off my 627, and I have had many 4" guns in the shop and test fired them. I don't see a big deal with a 4" gun.

Just my thoughts but the difference in weight between a 4" and 5" is less than the difference between a cylinder full of 230 bullets and a cylinder with 1 shot left. How many of you can tell the difference in recoil between the first shot and last shot in the cylinder during the course of fire?

I have shot them side by side and I CAN NOT tell which gun I have in my hands without looking. I put same grips on both guns.

I would put money on blindfolding someone and handing them a 625 and them firing it at a backstop and then trying the other gun and telling which is a 4" and which is a 5".

One thing I noticed with a 4" gun is it seems to get back on target quicker than the 5" gun. Seems like the front sight doesn't move as far in recoil. Just my observation and not something I can say is a definite advantage.

As for sight radius for the ranges that we shoot these guns at I just don't see that much advantage. If sight radius was a big advantage then all the top shooters would have custom 6-7 inch barrels on their guns, longer is supposed to be better right.(yeah wife just snickered when she walked by and seen me type that ) These barrels could be made to the same weight of a 5" barrel easily.

I do know a few revolver shooters that are VERY GOOD that are rocking 4" guns and they don't seem to have any problem shooting them and winning with them.

[pskys2]

The only real advantage I've seen with a 5" vs 4" is powder usage, and even that can be a non-issue due to variances in cylinder/barrel dimensions. But generally it takes less powder to make a PF with a 5" than a 4", maybe a tenth or two. Of course when you're misering your powder like we all are now, that may be the biggest issue of all.

[jhgtyre]

I just don't get this 4" VS 5" thing. I used to shoot a 5" 625 and still use it for dryfire practice to keep wear and tear off my 627, and I have had many 4" guns in the shop and test fired them. I don't see a big deal with a 4" gun.

Just my thoughts but the difference in weight between a 4" and 5" is less than the difference between a cylinder full of 230 bullets and a cylinder with 1 shot left. How many of you can tell the difference in recoil between the first shot and last shot in the cylinder during the course of fire?

I have shot them side by side and I CAN NOT tell which gun I have in my hands without looking. I put same grips on both guns.

I would put money on blindfolding someone and handing them a 625 and them firing it at a backstop and then trying the other gun and telling which is a 4" and which is a 5".

One thing I noticed with a 4" gun is it seems to get back on target quicker than the 5" gun. Seems like the front sight doesn't move as far in recoil. Just my observation and not something I can say is a definite advantage.

As for sight radius for the ranges that we shoot these guns at I just don't see that much advantage. If sight radius was a big advantage then all the top shooters would have custom 6-7 inch barrels on their guns, longer is supposed to be better right.(yeah wife just snickered when she walked by and seen me type that ) These barrels could be made to the same weight of a 5" barrel easily.

I do know a few revolver shooters that are VERY GOOD that are rocking 4" guns and they don't seem to have any problem shooting them and winning with them.

Uhm, hello, we are talking about REVOLVER SHOOTERS here, not exactly a group that goes in for CHANGE very often.

-ld

[thermobollocks]

I've had my 625 twice as long as my 327, but I've only had my 625 for like a year and a half

[MWP]

As for sight radius for the ranges that we shoot these guns at I just don't see that much advantage. If sight radius was a big advantage then all the top shooters would have custom 6-7 inch barrels on their guns, longer is supposed to be better right.(yeah wife just snickered when she walked by and seen me type that ) These barrels could be made to the same weight of a 5" barrel easily.

I do know a few revolver shooters that are VERY GOOD that are rocking 4" guns and they don't seem to have any problem shooting them and winning with them.

This year's nationals, in order of finish, barrel length:

1st: 5"

2nd: 6.5"

3rd: 5"

4th: 6.5"

5th: 6.5"

6th: 6.5"

7th: 5"

8th: 5"

I do agree with you that a good shooter should be able to overcome the differences with the shorter barrel, but when given the choice, they chose the longer barrel. Even only shooting light loads.

After seeing some of the shots required at bigger matches this year, I'm one of the believers in sight radius, and am experimenting with longer lightweight .355 barrels.

Back to the topic of the 627 being a game changer, I wasn't sure at first, but now I am positive that it is. 2 more shots are huge. We used to think minor scoring was enough to make up for capacity, but this years nationals shows the percentage of points shot the exact same as 2013, 92+ at the top.

[71Commander]

The only real advantage I've seen with a 5" vs 4" is powder usage, and even that can be a non-issue due to variances in cylinder/barrel dimensions. But generally it takes less powder to make a PF with a 5" than a 4", maybe a tenth or two. Of course when you're misering your powder like we all are now, that may be the biggest issue of all.

I have two identical 5" 625-4. One is 50 fps faster than the other one using the same load.

[Tom Freeman]

If being a game changer as in getting a few more people shooting what was a dead division last year this time, sounds good to me.

Nobody is telling you to go sell your 625/610 or that you cant use it. If you enjoyed shooting your 625 keep doing it.

Heck, I should be pissed at the rule change as I had just spent a big chunk of money on a bunch of HearthCo 45 GAP moon clips early last year. They wont get much use but thats ok. I got to use my 627/929 at something other than a yearly Regional ICORE match.

Not all change is bad. Its just change.

[pskys2]

The only real advantage I've seen with a 5" vs 4" is powder usage, and even that can be a non-issue due to variances in cylinder/barrel dimensions. But generally it takes less powder to make a PF with a 5" than a 4", maybe a tenth or two. Of course when you're misering your powder like we all are now, that may be the biggest issue of all.

I have two identical 5" 625-4. One is 50 fps faster than the other one using the same load.

Exactly, why I said Variances. I have a 6" M28 that consistently runs 60 f/s less than my 5" 627. And I have more rounds through the 627 in the last year, than I've put through the M28 in the ??42?? years I've owned it. Both barrels and cylinders are box stock, except for the chamfering on the 627. And the 627 is far more accurate than the M28. Go figure.

Tom I'm using my 625 with Gap loaded to minor, with ranch moon clips no less, as my back up gun.

The one thing that kept pulling me away from Revolver Division was the only 1 gun issue. I'd switch back and forth from my 4" M29 (but hated to use up the few RN bullets I had for it) and 5" 625, play with major/minor in the 625 but other than grips and sights nothing changed. And I'd get restless. At least now I've got a 4th option to play with.

I've been in Revolver since before it became a Division, I like change.

Edited June 20, 2014 by pskys2

[Carmoney]

I just don't get this 4" VS 5" thing. I used to shoot a 5" 625 and still use it for dryfire practice to keep wear and tear off my 627, and I have had many 4" guns in the shop and test fired them. I don't see a big deal with a 4" gun.

Just my thoughts but the difference in weight between a 4" and 5" is less than the difference between a cylinder full of 230 bullets and a cylinder with 1 shot left. How many of you can tell the difference in recoil between the first shot and last shot in the cylinder during the course of fire?

I have shot them side by side and I CAN NOT tell which gun I have in my hands without looking. I put same grips on both guns.

I would put money on blindfolding someone and handing them a 625 and them firing it at a backstop and then trying the other gun and telling which is a 4" and which is a 5".

One thing I noticed with a 4" gun is it seems to get back on target quicker than the 5" gun. Seems like the front sight doesn't move as far in recoil. Just my observation and not something I can say is a definite advantage.

As for sight radius for the ranges that we shoot these guns at I just don't see that much advantage. If sight radius was a big advantage then all the top shooters would have custom 6-7 inch barrels on their guns, longer is supposed to be better right.(yeah wife just snickered when she walked by and seen me type that ) These barrels could be made to the same weight of a 5" barrel easily.

I do know a few revolver shooters that are VERY GOOD that are rocking 4" guns and they don't seem to have any problem shooting them and winning with them.

If we are ever at the same place at the same time, we should set up a test, because I would give you action on that bet, Bosshoss! I can absolutely distinguish the difference in the recoil impulse between a 4" and 5" 625, using the same ammo, and have no doubt I could do it blindfolded. You wouldn't think that extra inch of barrel would matter, but it does. Back when all the higher-level guys were shooting 625s, the lone 4" hold-out was Keith, and he eventually saw the light and switched to a 5" gun.

As for sight radius, many of the top level shooters have installed longer barrels on their guns--Josh, John, and Dave are a few who come immediately to mind. Several others campaigned the longer-barreled 25-2s in competition in order to benefit from the longer sight radius.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Carmoney