Limited 10

[Singlestack]

I would vote yes to the change if just the name changes. Leave us with 10 round mags and whatever holster/mag pouches.

[shred]

Maybe if L10 were limited to prod holster rules it would get more shooters that don't want to splash out $150 on a holster ('twould also cut down somewhat on the "Joe LimitedMaster is here, I think I'll sign up in L10 today" action), but I'm still not seeing why we need a "1911-only" division.

Besides, what is a single-stack? Is a STI with the single-stack conversion grip on it a single-stack? Why or why not?

My vote is still "leave it alone"

[Chuck D]

God I hate this question.

Gary:

My problem with limiting L10 to SS only guns had to do strictly with LIMITING the choice of guns shooters have. Lets set aside the fact that N.Y. California, Mass, Hawaii and N.J. have strict limits on magazine capacity (all at 10 rounds except N.J. at 15 rounds). Lets set aside the fact that Wide Body gun owners will have to run the risk of committing a State level felony by acquiring magazines that will allow them to be competitive in Limited Division when they could be competitive in L10 before the SS gun rule change. Here is my problem.

Other than Springfield Armory, what SS manufacturer financially supports USPSA? Colt, Kimber, Wilson etc...etc...etc... don't give a damn about USPSA. IDPA benefits from them on a greater scale than USPSA and they're having a great laugh at our expense because USPSA is constantly seen as bending over backwards to accomodate IDPA shooters by modifying OUR rules. How many IDPA rules have been modified to suit USPSA shooters?

The fact is that in th States listed above, guns from SV,STI,Para,and Glock can (and are) shipped with a 10 round only magazine. ALL of these guns fit the L10 division criteria and these manufacturers support USPSA financially at every level of competition (State, Local, Area and National match level). To limit L10 to SS only status is a slap in the face to all the manufacturers whom supported us thru thick and thin. Not only this, but USPSA would once again render the financial expendature of a number of competitors moot by in effect "banning" their guns and magazines from a division they once frequented either by choice or necessity.

This is a bad move.

I sincerely hope to hear from you personally regarding this. As a strong proponent of L10... it's something severely needed by some of us unlucky enough to live in States that restrict our choice of equiptment. USPSA need not restrict it or devalue our investment any further. If SS only or SS Classic/IDPA type rules are SO in demand...create a category for it.

Thank you Gary for asking...I give you credit for putting yourself out there.

Hopefully Rob Boudrie is out there "lurking"....

[Flexmoney]

Hmmmm...another thread talking about making L-10 "single-stack only". Usually, I'd shut this thread right down...as we have page after page covering this topic already. However, since it was started by a BOD member who is looking for input, and since we have slightly new laws, I'll let it run until it degenerates into a vocal few.

[JFlowers]

Now that some of the "Why" is on the table, I do have definate opinions on those issues.

Sponsorship: If Kimber, Wilson, Colt, etc where sitting at the table with respectable sponsorship deals based on changes to the rules, then that would be a reason to consider change. "If we make these changes, sponsors might come" is NOT a sufficent reason to consider change.

Membership: I agree with many of peers here that this will not affect membership. You can shoot L10 and Production today with a minimal (no gun-based purchase is cheap, but relatively minimal) outlay. Heck, I started with Ruger P90 and aftermarket 10rd mags. I have started a friend of mine shooting L10, his Springfield WWII Mil-spec 1911, my 10rd magazines (sometimes shared), whatever gear we could cobble together. He is having a blast. He doesn't get to shoot as much as he would like, but thats life not rules, divisions, or anything else.

Anti-Gun States: Guys I hate to sound like I am putting you down, but we as a national division of an international organization can not bow to the whining liberal {descriptive terms removed} anti-gunners. And we need to stick to our guns, the rules should reflect that with those areas under unconstitutional laws asking USPSA for and being granted local variances to keep playing under the laws. So some poor guy living in Arizona has this huge box of S_I 140mm and 170mm magazines in a closet, bagged by who owns them and the California guys pick them up or have him ship them out when they go to competitions out of state, while they play with the same guns and 10rd magazines in state. The 10rd rule for Production should be an administrative rule to level the playing field between all brands of guns (Kahr, Glock, Spingfield, ect), not a concession to the Brady Bunch.

In the end, I do not see a goal here which I find sufficent to support a change in Limited 10 rules. I like Limited 10 the way it is, and like shooting my Kimber with McCormick 10rd mags out of old discontinued Safariland gear I found on EBay (who says you can't do this on a budget). And as far as Limited 10 goes, why not just change the Production rules to allow any factory gun limited to 10 rounds for administrative purposes. Thats makes as much sense to me as changing Limited 10 does at this point.

The most change I would support is making Limited 10 into Single Stack only with Limited's rule set. And I would only support that as the lesser evil if Leave It Alone was not gonna a viable option.

[ima45dv8]

Reading through this thread, I see so many great responses that mirror my opinions, so I'll just offer this:

Leave L10 as it is.

Add a Single-stack division if you wish (I really think it would be a hot ticket -- I'd play there).

Do not eliminate one for the other.

I may have missed the explanation if it was presented, but just exactly what makes adding SS as a new division prohibitively expensive? It ain't like we're wasting gobs of money on revolver trophies today (offered with the proper love and respect for our round-gun brethren). Most matches are not overwhelmed with wheelies to the point of providing more than one trophy. Some, not even one trophy.

Is there some huge cost associated with modifying EzWinScore?

If data entry at USPSA HQ is the issue, wouldn't increased mission count fees offset the expense?

I guess I'm just missing something....

[hopalong]

Leave it alone.....

I shoot in all Divisions BUT Open, and could shoot my LTD gun in it.... might not win but sure would piss off the red dotted blaster people that got smoked by the "iron sight gun"

As far as competition in the L-10 division goes does a 1.15 reload with a doublestack gun and 1.20 reload between a singlestack gun make the difference in a Match?

Hell No and those who think so are only kidding themselves.

sorry to be blunt but that is just the way it is.

As far as price to get into shooting goes....

I can go buy a Para-Ordnace P16-40 ltd for 800 bucks at the gun store and shoot it in LTD or LTD - 10 or I can go buy a Kimber Custom Eclipse (basically the same set up) for 1,000 bucks at the same gun store. People are going to spend what they want to or can no matter what division they shoot.

as far as getting IDPA shooters to USPSA...

In my neck of the woods the guys I invite to shoot USPSA that shoot IDPA usually turn down the invatation due to shooting philosiphies not equipment.

So Gary, Thanks for asking and being in the forefront among the board the thing that needs attention is what JFD and VLAD noted: Revolver division

One thing I read earlier but can't remember who wrote it is this....

Limited and Limited 10 should have the same and exact results on the classifiers (Hit factors should be the same in both) I have not looked at the new classifiers but up till now there was no advantage in shooting an 18 round Mag vs. 10 round in the classifiers. I am like Matt Mink If you can shoot Limited GM then you should be L-10 GM ( Sorry for the bluntness again) and If you can shoot L-10 GM then you should be L GM.( I myself am A, limited and B, L-10 but that is due to not shooting L-10 much)

I shoot my Kimber Single Stack in L-10 when I shoot in it, there is a place for Single Stack guns....Limited 10 don't think single stacks can't be competitive, go challenge TGO to a shoot off

HOPALONG

SMITTY, did you shoot Limited or Limited 10 at this years Nationals?(NOT trying to be a smart ass or anything like that just using you as an example of cross divisions shooters)

I already know that answer and he will Say Limited due to that is where the majority of the Competition is.... the dedicated L-10 shooters will shoot that and the others will shoot Limited and unless a match is single gun only that is how it will always work.

AND the Single gun thing is beat to death too so lets just leave well enough alone and try and promote our sport better.

Hopalong

[Chuck D]

This is what I was afraid of, the "I've got mine screw you if you don't (or can't) have yours mentality.

TRY and remember that it isn't the fault of those USPSA members that live in States where gun control (or in this case capacity control) is the order of the day.

USPSA was willing (and I thank them greatly for this) to design two divisions for us to be able to compete in on a National basis w/o handicap. Is it TOO much to ask that the conditions remain the same for us? I'd dare say that if we compared membership numbers by the population of a particular State, we'd find that the combined membership of the States affected by local laws to be a significant chunk of USPSA's membership. A large number of people to displace by ANOTHER rules change.

Can't we have our place to play....given to us by USPSA....without threat of change?

P.S. It is unrealistic to believe that simply because your individual State does not allow you to "import" high capacity magazines...everyone in that State will comply with the law.

There is an element of the membership that is willing to break the law to be competitive. case in point...how many of you are willing to be completely honest and admit to building a new "mag" from post ban magazine bodies and parts? We all KNOW it's done so why bother to deny it?

If wide body guns are booted from L10...There will be someone stupid enough to conjure up some "illegal" mags and compete with them in a State that didn't allow them after 1994. To think that USPSA can control magazine ownership ANYWHERE is lunacy. Those that play by the rules are now encouraged to break them to be competitive....not something I'd think USPSA would want to encourage.

[Sam]

Please let the fat bodies continue to play in L-10. I so love whomping them with my .45 caliber man pistol.

[Run n Gun]

Please let the fat bodies continue to play in L-10.  I so love whomping them with my .45 caliber man pistol.   

TRULY a MAN after my own heart!!!!!!!!

Ed

[John Dunn]

This thread is useless without a poll.

I'm torn. I'd love a SS division. Most of the time I feel like I am cheating when I shoot my widebody in L-10. In fact, since I got my Limited classification, I have only shot Limited in matches, and have shot L-10 just for classifiers.

Overall I think a SS division would be a good thing for the sport, and to recruit new and crossover (IDPA) shooters.

[AikiDale]

Gary,

I guess it is just too cold in Ashland to find any hornets nests worth stirring up in January so you came up with this one.

There should be a place for a single stack .45 to play. Some do it in Limited 10 and do quite well. It seems to me however Production would be a more proper place. No need to create or delete any divisions, just allow the SS .45 in Production in the US. My guess is the production shooters would welcome the SS shooters and not be afraid of the 1911 trigger having an unfair advantage. This would still give us a division for relatively box stock pistols, carried in a more "real world" fashion. In fact, I think I could come up with about 20 guys and form a new club if the SS .45 had a place to play under Production rules.

As for L-10 I would leave it alone.

Not sure what $.02 US is worth these days but there it is....

Dale

[Caspian_45]

I guess it is just too cold in Ashland to find any hornets nests worth stirring up in January so you came up with this one.

Thats a good one AikiDale.

I think Gary would probably take the hornets nest right about now.

As for throwing the SS in production, rule number 18 would have to be changed to Ah Hell just shoot what ya got.

[Barrettone]

My vote: Eliminate L-10 and make it singlestack 8+1.

Jeff

[Nik Habicht]

As I attend tournaments I notice that the majority of shooters in L-10 that I observe are using a full house Limited gun downloaded to 10 rounds. These shooters jump in and out of Limited and Limited 10 as they see fit using the same equipment. I am sure at the local level the situation may be different.

Gary,

I'll start chiming in here. At the club that I co-match direct, L-10 is the most popular division. While more than half of the shooters are shooting single-stacks in the division, there are others shooting Beretta .40s, Glock and HK .45s, and other guns in the division. Some of those folks are shooting factory ammo or duty ammo. I'm not willing to lose any of them for a rule change that I'm not convinced will net me more shooters.

Convince me that this is needed for the good of the sport --- in the sense that we'll have tens of new shooters joining and maintaining active membership at the majority of clubs in the U.S. --- and I'd be in favor. There'd have to be a really significant increase in the active shooter numbers though......

In the absence of such a need, (and in the absence of any data suggesting that this will grow the sport) let's not drive away or negatively impact financially any shooters who've put their gear together along the divisional guidelines established a few years ago.

Here's what L-10 offers us as is: A place where single-stacks and Glocks, Sigs, Berettas, CZs, S&Ws etc. in a major power factor caliber can play competitively.

As to some Lim division competitors switching to L10 to beat up on others with their unfair wide-bodys, there's two solutions: Abandon prizetables at major matches, or abandon divisions at major matches and have everyone shooting heads up.

[Nik Habicht]

There should be a place for a single stack .45 to play. Some do it in Limited 10 and do quite well. It seems to me however Production would be a more proper place. No need to create or delete any divisions, just allow the SS .45 in Production in the US. My guess is the production shooters would welcome the SS shooters and not be afraid of the 1911 trigger having an unfair advantage. This would still give us a division for relatively box stock pistols, carried in a more "real world" fashion.

Dale,

As long as you're willing to have those single-stacks abide by Production Division criteria --- i.e. no external mods, 2 oz. weight limit, flush fit mags, etc. --- I'd be happy to have you shoot a 1911 scoring minor in Production. I figure only the stoutest of shooters will have the waist room for eight or ten mags though. Oh yeah, you guys would have to cock the hammer on the draw too.....

[AikiDale]

Dale,

As long as you're willing to have those single-stacks abide by Production Division criteria --- i.e. no external mods, 2 oz. weight limit, flush fit mags, etc. --- I'd be happy to have you shoot a 1911 scoring minor in Production. I figure only the stoutest of shooters will have the waist room for eight or ten mags though. Oh yeah, you guys would have to cock the hammer on the draw too.....

I'm okay with the rest of the production criteria. And just to make it fair to the DA guys I'd be okay with an "Israeli" draw. Start with 8 in the magazine and rack the slide on the draw.... Since no course of fire may exceed 32 rounds 4 mags on the belt and one in the pistol should do just fine and even the skinny guys can handle that

[twix]

I like the idea of making L10 a SS only division. I think it would instantly become the most competitive division. The gear would be relatively equal, it would be all about the shooters.

Allow race gear, it doesn't make that much difference. Or not enough difference that practice wouldn't overcome. It would still allow for a "cool" factor and wouldn't tick off the guys that already have it. Slide that straight drop mag pouch around to the front if you think it'll help that much.

And please allow 10 round mags. The few IDPA crossovers will buy them if they like the game. Same for the racier holsters. Some will, some won't, so what.

This division would give me an excuse to build a CASPIAN, thereby supporting a manufacturer who already supports our sport.

I only shoot Limiterd now (with a Glock that is more competitive in Production) because that is what my buddies shoot and I want to compete against them. A SS Lim 10 division would create a very level playing field with a relatively low entry cost. I bet ten of us would switch over right off.

I would move to this divsion as quick as I could. I think it would be huge.

PS As an aside to the magazine-capacity-limited-state shooters, I'm not sure I understand the problem with this use of Lim10, I am not trying to be crass, I just don't get it.

Tom Bergman "C" Lim 10 with a Glock that would be eliminated from the class.

PS All the new folks coming in with their Glocks are either going to get a reloader and mags(to shoot production or Limited with their .40's) or a different gun,so after they are hooked, what's the difference?

[Flexmoney]

I have added the poll to this thread (thanks Dale, for the inspiration). I am going to delete the poll in the other thread. (We don't need this spilling into more and more threads.)

[h4444]

Lot's of good arguments,,,,I'll just add my vote to the poll and thread and a quick comment or 2,,,,

Leave 'er be.

There are USPSA SS matches popping up everywhere. These matches draw newer shooters and entice more experienced shooters to bring out the SS's. Most of our top shooters locally would stick to Limited or Open if L10 became SS only. Then again,,,,it would only be the SS matches that you'd see them shoot SS's.

We have that today.....

On a local level in most cases guys can be competitive shooting L10 with a SS.

H4444

[Chuck D]

Simple question. Does anyone know with reasonable certainty if U.S. Production Division...tailored closely enough with IDPA's SSP Division has lead to respectable numbers of crossover shooters from IDPA ?

If we as an organization can not answer this question with some level of certainty, how can we expect or predict that changing L10 to a SS only Division will draw crossover shooters from IDPA's CDP Division?

If we intend to draw IDPA shooters, why not then go the extra step and not only make L10 a SS only division but eliminate major/minor power factor so we can draw the ESP Division shooters (with the 38 Supers, 40's and 9x19's) as well? Hell, if we're going to target that market...lets go all out.

Where does it end? Ever since the inception of L10, there has been a movement of suspect quanity that has pushed for L10 as a SS only Division. Affirmative action in the action shooting sports if you will. If it makes sense to you to do the following:

1. Restrict the choices of available firearms and/or components to those willing to spend the dollars necessary to shoot what they WANT to shoot within the rules.

2. Place at an immediate disadvantage those in capacity restricted States willing and interested to compete on a National basis by forcing them to borrow, beg and steal magazines in which to be competitive outside their State of residence or commit a felony by harboring illegal magazines so to be competitive.

3. Practically shut out USPSA participating sponsors like SV, STI, Para, Glock from the sponsoring the Division for the "hope" that a SS only Division would bring sponsorship participation from Wilson, Colt and Kimber.

4. Turn USPSA, a uniquely designed practical pistol sport with a worldwide infrastructure into a SISTER version of IDPA.

then I don't know what else I can say. L10 is a popular Division. Someone HAS to explain to me how we can grow the Division by eliminating the race holster, eliminating the 10 round magazine for SS pistols, eliminating the choice of holster and mag pouch position and eliminating the competitor's choice in firearms legal for the Division. I hear (and have read) how a SS Division would be "great" and how it would draw IDPA shooters but I've yet to read how the benefit of this rules change would offset the effect it would have in NY, Calif, Mass, and NJ.

* Those fellow shooters out there that "just don't get it" when I refer to the above States being effected by this proposal: I have a proposal for you. I have a guest room you can stay in. I have a spare car you can drive. I'll even feed you 3 squares a day AND do your laundry. Just get yourself to Upstate N.Y and spend some time looking for pre-ban hi-cap magazines. Spend some time calling around looking to buy some mags from out of State only to be told, "sorry, we don't ship that to NY (or Mass, or Calif. for that matter). In otherwords, spend a day or two in "our" shoes and then tell me it's no big deal not to have or have to borrow the gear you need to be competitive at an Area or Nationals.

See, you'd know this if you read the fine print on the web sites of STI, SV and Para.

I respect EVERYONE'S opinion and I do believe that a permanent home for the SS pistol is solely needed. It shouldn't be conceived at the expense of an already existing and highly participated Division.

Why not create a category within L10 ?

[Kimberkid]

This thread grew very fast which is both nice, and kinda disconcerting. It bothers me a bit how hostile some people have gotten over such a trivial point. I really doubt that any doomsdayer prophecies would come true.... No massive additional sponsorships, No shutting out current sponsors, nothing very drastic at all. I dont see how anyone would be hurt or out cash at all by making L-10 turn to SS only. If you already have a fat gun, shoot limited. I see that some people dont like that as much, but you still have a place to shoot it. How many people that dont usually shoot L-10 have a SS in the back of the safe, or behind the seat of the truck?? I shoot L-10 now with a SS because I like SS's more. I will eventually have an S-I for Limited, and should my SS ever break, the fat gun will be my back up. However, if anyone wants to turn L-10 into SS only thats fine with me, cause it aint hurting anyone really. It doesnt really bother me that fat guns can shoot L-10 now, it just seems a bit less pure to me personally, not wrong, just not right for me. I think a SS only class would be very popular, but as far as Production gear 8 rd. mags and all that, I dunno, I sorta like my 10 rd. .40 mags and race rig.

There was a lot more I wanted to say and it all got lost in the crossfire, How things are now dont bother me, but I would like to see L-10 go SS. Just my .02, and that dont buy much anymore.

p.s. Smitty, it is a Sammy Kershaw song.

[rishii]

if you gotta change something, do away with seperate classifications for limited and L10. other than that leave it alone.

[TRNinTX]

Leave the divisions alone except for making Lim & L10 classifications the same.

I used to be in favor of making L10 a SS only division with Prod type gear, but I have changed my mind. I don't believe that the SS is a huge disadvantage to reload, it just might take more practice. If you want to shoot out of Prod gear, it's legal and again with some practice not a disadvantage.

As soon as I get the Springfield SS back up a running, I will probably go back to shooting L10 with it, just because I like the SS platform.

[lmccrock]

Leave it alone for now. There are too many divisions. Clubs already have enough trouble filling out 1st-2nd-3rd place at matches in all divisions/classes.

I must assume that everyone who wants SS means SS to be 8+1. Well, any SS will be quite competitive today in L10 with 10+1 that stick out some. I shoot L10 with a wide-body in a production-like holster. No philosophy thing, just too cheap to get a race holster. I have way too many areas to improve before a fancy holster will help much.

To reiterate another's point, the 10-round restricted states are a substantial fraction of the population. As a former Californian, I can relate.

Also, the more USPSA is made to be more like IDPA, then what is the difference? Why would we need USPSA?

A change that makes more sense to me is to turn Production (which is minor/double action/carry-type gear/restricted mods/10 rd) into Production(carry-type gear/restricted mods/10 rd). Dump minor and DA in Production to attract the carry-gear SS folks. But that is a whole new can of worms.

Lee