For the "Older Shooters"

[eric nielsen]

New Zenni Optical glasses arrived today, quicker than I expected (13 days). Better than the 1st pair in some minor ways - no tinting, spring hinges, and a little less Add power in the right eye. Now when I extend the gun out strong-hand-only, the front sight is still the clearest. If you have too much add power, the rear sight will start to become more clear than the front, which is less than ideal.

All depends on how far out you hold the gun and how bad your vision is. Some people may benefit from using their full prescription Near Vision "add" number while for others it may be too much. If your N.V. + number is huge (up to 3.0 diopter) you may have to compromise on the difference between your left & right eye correction to avoid getting a sick feeling, or, you may just get used to it. Seems to vary by who you ask too - people are different.

[TGO]

I'm 52 and need 1.75's for reading/seeing front sights. No way I could shoot with them as my distance vision is fantastic as in I can see a golf ball on a green from well over 200 yards.

I'm going to the Dot, going to "Production Optics", in other words shoot a production gun in minor with a slide mounted red dot following all other production rules. I might just shoot more Steel matches.

I just don't see a combination of lenses that would be comfortable to see/shoot irons any longer.

I refuse to "buy into" the full Open game, just too far from my definition of Practical

hey open is not really in line with the practical thing, but to be honest lots of stuff we do is now a long way from any 'practical' roots of the sport.

I thought the same. I loved shooting production because of the challenge of shooting standard power loads, with iron sights, in a production hand gun. it really gives good gun handling skills and helps develop a range of shooting skills.

now my problem is I have keratoconus. I struggle even to get the correct prescription and looking through different parts of my eye gives me different levels of focus. it was really hurting my accuracy. I partly cured it by lots of dry fire which gave me better muscle memory which meant my head and gun were always aligned the same. but of course as soon as I got a low port, or a sitting position etc that went out the window.

One day for fun I shot a mates open gun. we were standing at about 30 meters shooting a small round plate (steel challenge plate). I fired a shot, hit the plate. then started some fairly quick fire and just kept ringing that plate shot after shot. something I could probably not do repeatably with my production gun.

So I bought an open gun and for the most part it takes your vision problems out of the equation. it may be not as close to 'practical' as a production gun but it's a shitload of fun!! make no mistake, loading for, and shooting a major PF open gun is still a challenge.

and as far as practical goes I certainly wouldn't EDC a open gun, but if the zombie apocalypse hit it may well be the tool of choice....

I also think shooting open is helping make me a better production shooter.

And you can mount an optical sight on your carry gun. many do, including myself. While I think we have to look at the concept of production optical, it needs to be kept in check and I for one do not think, as stated previously, they should allow us to be competing for the prizes and awards, except in the old fart classes. I'm only a couple seasons from that now in USPSA and am already there for IPSC.

The way I see it is this; In a couple years I probably won't be able to see iron sights well enough to win an overall division. At that time it's more than likely that I won't win anyway. Old and fat catches up to you....However I may still wan't to shoot, and going for the senior titles mean more to me now than 10 years ago and probably will more in 2 years than now. It would be nice to be in a place where I'm not relegated to having to shoot open when the time comes. I'd probably rather shoot any division, with a compact optic mounted than open. That being said, the young and strong oughta be winning overall's, I'll just still want to be shooting my SS or prod or revo and if I had one, my optical sight should not compete against the irons.

For those that want to shoot optics before the magic 55, let them. But not for prizes or awards except for seniors category. My bet is a lot of folks would choose to shoot Optic whatever if it was a division but not if it wasn't eligible for the prizes. Then we would see if shooters chose to use those types of sights just to stay in the game. On the other hand it sucks that someone not 55 but wanting to, or needing to couldn't shoot the division if they wanted too.

So dump L10 and institute a new class called optical carry. Mix SS, Prod, Lim 10 all together and see who wants to do that. i think the division might be cool if we can keep the guns from becoming what was once IPSC modified. My bet is I try to shoot irons until I just can't. On the other hand, it makes a very interesting piece of equipment....

Edited August 22, 2014 by TGO

[BeerBaron]

I'm 52 and need 1.75's for reading/seeing front sights. No way I could shoot with them as my distance vision is fantastic as in I can see a golf ball on a green from well over 200 yards.

I'm going to the Dot, going to "Production Optics", in other words shoot a production gun in minor with a slide mounted red dot following all other production rules. I might just shoot more Steel matches.

I just don't see a combination of lenses that would be comfortable to see/shoot irons any longer.

I refuse to "buy into" the full Open game, just too far from my definition of Practical

hey open is not really in line with the practical thing, but to be honest lots of stuff we do is now a long way from any 'practical' roots of the sport.

I thought the same. I loved shooting production because of the challenge of shooting standard power loads, with iron sights, in a production hand gun. it really gives good gun handling skills and helps develop a range of shooting skills.

now my problem is I have keratoconus. I struggle even to get the correct prescription and looking through different parts of my eye gives me different levels of focus. it was really hurting my accuracy. I partly cured it by lots of dry fire which gave me better muscle memory which meant my head and gun were always aligned the same. but of course as soon as I got a low port, or a sitting position etc that went out the window.

One day for fun I shot a mates open gun. we were standing at about 30 meters shooting a small round plate (steel challenge plate). I fired a shot, hit the plate. then started some fairly quick fire and just kept ringing that plate shot after shot. something I could probably not do repeatably with my production gun.

So I bought an open gun and for the most part it takes your vision problems out of the equation. it may be not as close to 'practical' as a production gun but it's a shitload of fun!! make no mistake, loading for, and shooting a major PF open gun is still a challenge.

and as far as practical goes I certainly wouldn't EDC a open gun, but if the zombie apocalypse hit it may well be the tool of choice....

I also think shooting open is helping make me a better production shooter.

And you can mount an optical sight on your carry gun. many do, including myself. While I think we have to look at the concept of production optical, it needs to be kept in check and I for one do not think, as stated previously, they should allow us to be competing for the prizes and awards, except in the old fart classes. I'm only a couple seasons from that now in USPSA and am already there for IPSC.

The way I see it is this; In a couple years I probably won't be able to see iron sights well enough to win an overall division. At that time it's more than likely that I won't win anyway. Old and fat catches up to you....However I may still wan't to shoot, and going for the senior titles mean more to me now than 10 years ago and probably will more in 2 years than now. It would be nice to be in a place where I'm not relegated to having to shoot open when the time comes. I'd probably rather shoot any division, with a compact optic mounted than open. That being said, the young and strong oughta be winning overall's, I'll just still want to be shooting my SS or prod or revo and if I had one, my optical sight should not compete against the irons.

For those that want to shoot optics before the magic 55, let them. But not for prizes or awards except for seniors category. My bet is a lot of folks would choose to shoot Optic whatever if it was a division but not if it wasn't eligible for the prizes. Then we would see if shooters chose to use those types of sights just to stay in the game. On the other hand it sucks that someone not 55 but wanting to, or needing to couldn't shoot the division if they wanted too.

So dump L10 and institute a new class called optical carry. Mix SS, Prod, Lim 10 all together and see who wants to do that. i think the division might be cool if we can keep the guns from becoming what was once IPSC modified. My bet is I try to shoot irons until I just can't. On the other hand, it makes a very interesting piece of equipment....

very interesting post Mr Leatham and as a top shooter in the sport I take what you say seriously.

I've been somewhat against the idea of a 'production optics' division but perhaps we were looking at it the wrong way.

Perhaps it just needs to be called "carry optics" or how about "practical optic".

Something like:

gun must fit in a box (size yet to be determined)

max barrel length

perhaps allow slide mounted optics only?

no comps or ports allowed

perhaps limited rules? 140mm mags max? or even make it 15 rounds max like IPSC production?

maybe it's as simple as this. in production, limited, revo, and single stack you have a 'sub-division' which is "production optic", "limited optic" etc. All the normal divisional rules apply but you can have a compact, slide mounted red dot sight. You cannot compete against the guys in the regular division, only against others using an optic. so you cannot outright win production using an optic, but you could come first in production optic. That may be the simplest way to do it? That would allow guys with failing eyesight who love their revo, or their STI edge or whatever to keep the same gun and just add the RDS. They'd still be competing against competitors with similar equipment.

I'm curious to hear why you wouldn't want to be relegated to open? I know you've shot a fair bit of open? is it more a young mans game?

I think we also need a fat bloke category! every 5kgs you are over 100kg gives you a 5% point advantage...

[Steve RA]

I still think Senior ought to start @ 60 and SuperSenior @ 70 and you can shoot optics in any class. I'll agree about the "not for prizes" part as at that point you would just be shooting against others in the same shape you are in.

[RaylanGivens]

New Zenni Optical glasses arrived today, quicker than I expected (13 days). Better than the 1st pair in some minor ways - no tinting, spring hinges, and a little less Add power in the right eye. Now when I extend the gun out strong-hand-only, the front sight is still the clearest. If you have too much add power, the rear sight will start to become more clear than the front, which is less than ideal.

All depends on how far out you hold the gun and how bad your vision is. Some people may benefit from using their full prescription Near Vision "add" number while for others it may be too much. If your N.V. + number is huge (up to 3.0 diopter) you may have to compromise on the difference between your left & right eye correction to avoid getting a sick feeling, or, you may just get used to it. Seems to vary by who you ask too - people are different.

Eric - Thanks for following up on your Zenni glasses project... I ordered a set today...

I shot with a +0.50 prescription in my dominant eye for several years... Recently the front sight started to get blurry... Took some measurements and found that my front sight is 23 inches in front of my glasses... Had my eyes checked and requested a second "shooting" prescription at the 23" distance. The correction for perfect focus at 23" was +1.00.

Had a new pair of Oakley Prizm inserts made with the new +1.00 prescription for my dominant (right) eye. THe distance value in my left eye did not change. The front sight is now crystal clear with the rear sight slightly blurred. Targets are also less clear than before and the new +1.00 inserts take a bit more time to get used to before I shoot.

I currently have Oakely inserts with +0.50 and +1.00 right eye prescriptions... I decided to order a pair of Zenni glasses similar to yours with a +0.75 correction in the right eye. One of them should be perfect!

[TGO]

I still think Senior ought to start @ 60 and SuperSenior @ 70 and you can shoot optics in any class. I'll agree about the "not for prizes" part as at that point you would just be shooting against others in the same shape you are in.

Oh Steve, you just wanna keep those 55 year old youngsters out of your class?? I get the idea, and I'm sure I'll agree with you when I'm looking at 60 instead of 55 ! However, in reality we need to adopt motocross age groups. 30+, 40+ etc...

I think the IPSC 50 years of age for senior is about right. USPSA modified that to 55 as we in the states have a lot more old folks (like me) shooting than in other countries. The eyes going matter less on the easier shots we routinely have here than ellsewhere. I just returned from Sweden where I visited but did not shoot, a big IPSC event where the average difficulty of targets was probably twice what I routinely see in the states. And I might add, they used the two smaller scale targets routinely. Never any 5 yard shots on the fullsize targets. They used of course the other target we seldom see without the head which is of itself smaller than the target we routinely have here. It was a much harder cof for iron sights, and much more athletic. You could understand why a 50 year old with glasses would want the senior division to start as early as possible.

[mgardner]

I recently got some Wiley DMX safety glasses with enough prescription in the weak eye to clear up the targets and enough prescription in the left to not quite make the sights clear. They ended up with a .75 difference in the lenses which isn't problematic and seem to be about right for quick shooting but not well suited for precise target work. I'm shooting steel better than USPSA with them.

[Steve RA]

I think a lot depends on which side of 55, 60 or 70 you happen to be on !!!

[lstone]

So 58 years old I just came back from the Optometrist's office, I was fitted with contacts and my up close vision has vastly Improved but my distance is blurry which is just the opposite that I am used to. She said it takes the brain a couple of weeks to adjust to the change. I will see in a couple of weeks if the mono vision will work.

Edited August 26, 2014 by lstone

[Steve RA]

I don't care about the 55yr olds, it's the 60s I want to keep out !!!

[RaylanGivens]

So 58 years old I just came back from the Optometrist's office, I was fitted with contacts and my up close vision has vastly Improved but my distance is blurry which is just the opposite that I am used to. She said it takes the brain a couple of weeks to adjust to the change. I will see in a couple of weeks if the mono vision will work.

I'm interested to see how this works out for you... Contacts would allow the use of any ballistic eyeware without using inserts to hold the prescription lenses...

You have a normal, distance prescription in your non-dominant eye and sight-focus in your dominant eye, right? Some of my friends just use one contact for close up vision.

[ramairthree]

I had a similar situation to Mr. Leatham.

I spent my whole life with 20/10 vision.

I could see my shots hitting with a pistol, crush clay pigeons, did not need a spotting scope where I saw others using them, hand no idea why someone would need a cyclops on a watch date and preferred the Seiko diver day/date, read faint little markings on a drill bit, read in pretty dark light, etc.

Then a little after 45 my lenses hit that point where they awesome focus is gone. I am only like 20/15 far vision now, need reading glasses,

and the dot of an Aimpoint is now a little figure 8 looking.

I have not gone to corrective lenses for shooting yet,

but find it very frustrating to need glasses for stuff like reading, reloading, etc.

[Steve RA]

Wait another 30 years and see how you are doing !!

[Hotchkiss]

well when this happened to me i just went over to the dark side of open div and love it

LOL!!

Someone asked me why I don't shoot open class. I said "Because I have a choice. Soon enough I won't and I'll be shooting open."

[mfaith]

I took the easy way out. I switched to a red dot.

[eboadway]

Had a new pair of Oakleys made after realizing my front fiber optic was pretty blurry using my "everyday" glasses. Made a huge difference! Thanks for the advice, all! Eye doctor was a bit confused but went along with it...

[Blackhawk]

I'm 68 and wear bifocals as an insert with my shooting glasses and shoot Open. No problem...

[billm67]

this is good info. I an 48 and always had 20/10. I went and had my eyes checked last year (after wearing 1.25 readers for a couple of years) and came away with progressive bifocals. For distance I still see fine without my glasses. I tried shooting with progressives and can't do it. I tried a pair of 1.25 readers I have sitting by my chair and my front sight is nice and sharp. But distance is fuzzy. Do you guys wear readers for a whole match?

[motosapiens]

I tried a pair of 1.25 readers I have sitting by my chair and my front sight is nice and sharp. But distance is fuzzy. Do you guys wear readers for a whole match?

if you use 1.25 to read, I would try some .50 or .75 readers to shoot. I get sharp front sight and less fuzziness in the distance that way. I personally only wear my glasses for shooting, but some folks keep them on the whole time.

[RaylanGivens]

this is good info. I an 48 and always had 20/10. I went and had my eyes checked last year (after wearing 1.25 readers for a couple of years) and came away with progressive bifocals. For distance I still see fine without my glasses. I tried shooting with progressives and can't do it. I tried a pair of 1.25 readers I have sitting by my chair and my front sight is nice and sharp. But distance is fuzzy. Do you guys wear readers for a whole match?

I wouldn't use standard "readers" to shoot a match... Not much eye protection if something goes wrong... or for steel plate ricochets...

My distance vision is 20/20. Chataract surgery in both eyes has limited my focusing ability. I have a prescription set of Rudy Project shooting glasses. Both lenses are single focus. The right lens (my dominant eye) is +0.75 and focuses my right eye on the front sight. My left lens is my standard distance prescription.

I put them on while I drive to a match and leave them on the entire time. They are not hard to get used to.

I have tried many, many different shooting glasses. Rudy's are my favorites by a long shot. They are expensive, but they fit well... they protect your eyes well, and I see the best through single prescription lenses. I've tried prescription inserts and they didn't suit me.

[motosapiens]

I wouldn't use standard "readers" to shoot a match... Not much eye protection if something goes wrong... or for steel plate ricochets...

they're actually pretty sturdy but you can easily get safety-readers on the internetz that will offer more coverage.

[ZoomZoom]

I wear 1.0 di insert in my Rudy's . Enough to see the front sight sharply without to much target blur. Right eye only. Without it the front sight is a blur.

Same thing here but I went with a 1.5. I can see the front sight but it's not enough magnification to make me fall down [a lot.]

Guess they can do what amounts to the same thing with single eye surgery. A friend had it done, now see fine close and at a distance. Apparently the brain very quickly adapts to the new difference.

Edited December 10, 2014 by ZoomZoom

[AlphaShot]

I was blessed that I have an ophthalmologist that let me bring my gun in and we spent about an hour playing around with lenses so I could focus on both the front sight and the target. I spent an extra $250 getting a Wiley X shooting glasses but ended up putting the prescription in just a good pair of glasses. I'm only 50 but my eyes have become an issue. You may try calling around to see if you can find a good ophthalmologist in your area that will work with you.

[Wilson]

I did what AlphaShot did. I brought my guns to the doctor's office and spent some time finding the right lenses. Worth every penny.

[Daft]

alpha and wilson, did you get the dominant eye for front sight and target distance for the other? Geezer here.