lawboy Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 (edited) Okay, this is what occurred. The shooter was in the make ready location. The RO was standing just behind the shooter off his right shoulder, ie., on his gun side as one might expect. The RO says to someone behind the shooter, without warning the shooter, "BACK UP, WE ARE GOING TO MAKE READY." The RO has a pronounced East European accent. All the shooter heard the RO say was "MAKE READY." The RO issued a DQ based on handling a gun without being directed to by the RO. I was not the shooter. I was not the RO. I was not present at the match. However, I know both the shooter and the RO, and the incident was videotaped by a good friend. Is the DQ legitimate? Should the RO have warned the shooter he was going to utter the words "make ready" but that he was not issuing the "make ready" command? If this issue came to you as Range Master at a sanctioned match, would you support the DQ or over turn it? Same question, only now you are on an arbitration committee. I know what I think but want to hear from more experienced shooters. I will say I witnessed the same RO issue the same DQ to another shooter under near identical circumstances a year ago. Sorry about misspelling righteous in the thread title. :-) Edited April 15, 2014 by lawboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Seems bogus.. he uttered the words.. he owns them.. and the shooter did what he heard... which is why when the shooter is in the prep phase and in the box, I do not say anything other than range commands.. I had this happen once before when I uttered the words "range going hot" and the competitor heard "Load and make ready" which were the commands at the time.. It looks like he was hunting for a reason to dq someone.. my opinion.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 If the RO shouted it while the shooter was walking up to the starting position and the guy whips out his gun, sure DQ away. If the shooter is at the starting position and the RO is standing right there next to him, then it's just a dick move that could have been handled differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911HL Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I'm not an RO but imo its on the shooter. If he is unsure of what he heard, he can always double check with the RO. On the other hand, instead of saying "back up, we are going to make ready", the RO shouldve said "back up, we are going hot" to avoid confusion. I've seen this happen several times before where a shooter misunderstands an RO and gets DQ'd. I always turn my head and look at the RO making sure I hear his commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ty Hamby Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 His eastern European accent can play a part. "BAUCK UP, VHEE DAR GOATING DO MAKE VEDDY." This sounds like.... "Back up we are going...... "Now Make Ready"! Two phrases not one. So unfortunate to hear the outcome of a shooter obeying a rational range command spoken by the RO at the beginning of the stage. Then DQ's the shooter when he....the RO wasn't ready for his own command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 The RO says "BACK UP, WE ARE GOING TO MAKE READY." The RO issued a DQ based on handling a gun without being directed to by the RO. I witnessed the same RO issue the same DQ to another shooter under near identical circumstances a year ago. Sounds like the RO has difficulty learning from his mistakes, or he enjoys DQ'ing shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onagoth Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Completely illegitimate in my view, this is nothing but punishment against a shooter for a mistake made by an RO Exactly why the ROs should only stick to the range commands in the books. "we are going to make ready" is not a range command. I would arbitrate that in a second. On a arb committee, I would overturn it based on the scenario you described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 The words in front do not matter. He said "Make Ready" so he issued the command to start the COF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBunniFuFu Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Wong call, he started a range command and the shooter followed. I would over turn this in a heart beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill o Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I would be pretty pissed if an RO tried to DQ me for making ready after he said make ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Basic RO rule. NEVER say make ready until it's time to say it. If I were the RO in this case and the shooter drew his gun I would stop him and admit my mistake and then carry on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Complete BS, IMO. I would have fought that tooth and nail. When I am in the "box", I am in a sort of zone. I have tuned everyone but the RO out. I am only listening for range commands. I am kind of like a dog at that point, bla bla bla Fido, bla bla bla. Bla, bla,bla Make Ready Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawboy Posted April 15, 2014 Author Share Posted April 15, 2014 Looks like my own view tracks that of most so far. Make ready means make ready. If you don't man it, don't say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 The shooter heard "make ready" and started to do so. You can't expect someone wearing hearing protection (sometimes doubled up), with frequently a lot of chatter from the ROs and peanut gallery behind him, to get all the context of words that are being uttered near him. That's why we have exceedingly simple range commands. Simply put: The shooter was listening for the RO's voice to say "make ready," and when he heard it he drew his gun. That's not a DQ, in my opinion. It's still a "best practice" to confirm that the RO said "make ready" if you're not 100% sure, but this one is definitely on the RO, and he shouldn't have issued the DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 If the RO shouted it while the shooter was walking up to the starting position and the guy whips out his gun, sure DQ away. If the shooter is at the starting position and the RO is standing right there next to him, then it's just a dick move that could have been handled differently. Depending on circumstances, I might overturn that..... If you as the RO say "Make Ready" in any way, shape or form, it'll be hard for me to sustain a DQ under 10.5.1, because you said the magic words, and the competitor reacted to them..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Agree with many of the above----the RO shouldn't have issued the DQ in the first place. (The RO screwed up---the shooter followed the range command given.) RM, when called, should have overturned it immediately. If I were on the arb committee, assuming all facts as stated were the entirety of the situation, would vote to overturn the DQ immediately. And would suggest that the RM counsel the RO to watch what he says, as his mistake lead directly to the situation occurring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmj3 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 The words in front do not matter. He said "Make Ready" so he issued the command to start the COF. Yep, RO screwed up IMO. If I'm in the box and you say "make ready" in any phrase I'm interpreting that as make ready and will proceed. RO needs some training IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Agree with many of the above----the RO shouldn't have issued the DQ in the first place. (The RO screwed up---the shooter followed the range command given.) RM, when called, should have overturned it immediately. If I were on the arb committee, assuming all facts as stated were the entirety of the situation, would vote to overturn the DQ immediately. And would suggest that the RM counsel the RO to watch what he says, as his mistake lead directly to the situation occurring. This dude is talking sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 If I hear "Make Ready"...I'm going to make ready...not second guess or question the RO. We'll be discussing with the RM if the RO attempts to DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Gose is right-dick move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmj3 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I'm not an RO but imo its on the shooter. If he is unsure of what he heard, he can always double check with the RO. On the other hand, instead of saying "back up, we are going to make ready", the RO shouldve said "back up, we are going hot" to avoid confusion. I've seen this happen several times before where a shooter misunderstands an RO and gets DQ'd. I always turn my head and look at the RO making sure I hear his commands. Negative. As related in the OP, the RO uttered the phrase "make ready" while the shooter was in the box and ready to go - supposedly videotaped to go back and check. When the RO says make ready the shooter is under no obligation to confirm that the RO is actually ready for him to make ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 When the RO says make ready the shooter is under no obligation to confirm that the RO is actually ready for him to make ready. ^^THIS^^!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I'm not an RO but imo its on the shooter. If he is unsure of what he heard, he can always double check with the RO. On the other hand, instead of saying "back up, we are going to make ready", the RO shouldve said "back up, we are going hot" to avoid confusion. I've seen this happen several times before where a shooter misunderstands an RO and gets DQ'd. I always turn my head and look at the RO making sure I hear his commands. It is NOT on the shooter...the shooter was not unsure of what he heard...he heard "make ready"...and proceeded to do so... This is why ROs should not utter anything except for the range commands while the shooter is at the ready position...if the RO needs to utter something else, make sure the shooter knows without exception that you are going to say something else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avezorak Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Make Ready means Make Ready. The context does not matter. The RO in question needs to learn the rules. Its not that difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I think it is pretty clear that given the events as told this is a bogus reason to DQ someone. If I was the shooter I would have asked for the MD right after showing clear and holstering. So, how did this play out? Did the Shooter ask for the MD after the DQ? If so, what did the MD say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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