TH3180 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 During a conversation after a match this weekend a question got brought up. Say there is a target partially covered by a no shoot, which you can only see through a port. The average height person can see the top ¼ of the A zone and up. A shooter that is on the shorter side like myself at 5’ 6” cannot see any of the target. How is this handled? I looked through the rule book and can’t find anything on it. The whole thing got brought up, because of this situation last year at an Area match. I was not at the match but heard the story. In that case the shooter, shot in the direction of the target to not get a failure to engage and just took her two Mikes. When I was shooting a local match two summers ago I had this happen. I was a very new shooter at the time. Didn’t realize the problem until I was shooting the stage. I took my penalties and moved on. It was a local match no big deal. When I spend the money and time to go to an area match. I would not be the happiest of campers if this happened. Any advice if I run into this situation and where to look in the rule book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrVvrroomm Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 2.1.6? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 The only two things I could find were: 1.1.6 Difficulty – USPSA matches present varied degrees of difficulty. No shooting challenge or time limit may be appealed as being prohibitive. This does not apply to nonshooting challenges, which should reasonably allow for differences in competitor’s height and physical build. 2.1.6 Obstacles – Natural or created obstacles in a course of fire should reasonably allow for variations in competitors’ height and physical build and should be constructed to provide reasonable safety for all competitors, Match Officials and spectators. The following one is usually used for equipment that malfunctions but I could see it used to argue against target placement that renders some unreachable based on height. 4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of props such as openings, ports, and barriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I would call the RM to make adjustments to the wall/port that would allow all the shooters to view the target. Ports can be lengthened vertically to take care of this. Bring it up before you shoot though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 2.1.6 should not apply for sure ,as walls are not obstacles. 1.1.6 maybe No shooting challenge or time limit may be appealed as being prohibitive. I would say a shooter has to be able to see a target before it could be called a shooting challenge? This does not apply to nonshooting challenges, which should reasonably allow for differences in competitor’s height and physical build. I think this is talking about ports which should allow EVERY shooter to be able to see through it. 4.6.1 I don't think it is REF as much as it is ROF (range officials failure) My opinion would be that the stage should be thrown out. It's a shame that at a major match a shooter had to just shoot rounds at nothing to avoid a failure to shoot at penalty. Even worse when you consider she still should have gotten the FTE because you can't shoot at something you can't see. local or major this stage was illegal in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 CANT USE A 2X4 OR 2X6 PLATFORM AS A STEP ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 CANT USE A 2X4 OR 2X6 PLATFORM AS A STEP ?? Its hard to time your steps to hit that platform precisely, in a sport that is measured to the 100th of a second its clearly a disadvantage to the shorter competitor. A narrow vertical port provides the same challenge to any competitor regardless of height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavy Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 A simple solution is to provide a step or raised area to provide height challenged individuals the ability to see all targets. There will always be some advantage or disadvantage based on physical differences between individuals but this would have been easy to eliminate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 If you put a step or platform there then it has to stay there for every shooter. As mentioned above, the ports just need to be cut long enough to work for everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Short people got no reason to live. Kidding. Keep the courses fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aglifter Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Yes, it should be possible for all the shooters to make the shot, in some fashion - but that height can be a disadvantage is just part of the sport - almost every port I've encountered has been too short for me to easily shoot out of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 4.2.5 Hard Cover (and overlapping no-shoots) must not completely hide the highest scoring zone on a partially hidden paper target. The minimum requirements are specified in Appendix B. If the minimum area of the target, as stipulated in Appendix B, is not visible to the shooter because it is blocked by the no-shoot and/or wall (hard cover), then the stage is illegal and should be thrown out. The fact that a taller shooter might be able to see it is irrelevant IMHO... you could make the same argument for a solid wall which only an NBA player could shoot over the top of, but for which everyone else is screwed. Having the stage thrown out should be the price paid by the MD for thoughtless stage design/construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onagoth Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 in IPSC, its 2.2.7 2.2.7 Windows and Ports – Must be placed at a height reachable by most competitors, with a sturdy platform being available for use by others, if requested, without penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiny Warrior Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Lol....welcome to my world! Except I'm 5'0 and have encounter this on many occasions. Not to be disrespectful to the great people that design & set up stages, but I'm not sure why this is still a problem. There's quite a few short women (and men) not to mention kids/young adults who shoot. Having a step or platform of some kind doesn't work for me entirely. Ya it helps me see the target, which is I guess the important part, but it takes time to make sure I land on it, stay supported & take off safely as opposed to stepping into position, engaging the target(s) & moving to the next shooting position if there is one. Yes, it should be possible for all the shooters to make the shot, in some fashion - but that height can be a disadvantage is just part of the sport - almost every port I've encountered has been too short for me to easily shoot out of. I've heard this before, but you have the ability to get low, I can't get taller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Lol....welcome to my world! Except I'm 5'0 and have encounter this on many occasions. Not to be disrespectful to the great people that design & set up stages, but I'm not sure why this is still a problem. There's quite a few short women (and men) not to mention kids/young adults who shoot. Having a step or platform of some kind doesn't work for me entirely. Ya it helps me see the target, which is I guess the important part, but it takes time to make sure I land on it, stay supported & take off safely as opposed to stepping into position, engaging the target(s) & moving to the next shooting position if there is one. Yes, it should be possible for all the shooters to make the shot, in some fashion - but that height can be a disadvantage is just part of the sport - almost every port I've encountered has been too short for me to easily shoot out of. I've heard this before, but you have the ability to get low, I can't get taller. it takes time to get low (and then to stand back up again), just like it takes time to get on a step. Nonetheless, longer vertical ports can alleviate most of this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Lol....welcome to my world! Except I'm 5'0 and have encounter this on many occasions. Not to be disrespectful to the great people that design & set up stages, but I'm not sure why this is still a problem. There's quite a few short women (and men) not to mention kids/young adults who shoot. Having a step or platform of some kind doesn't work for me entirely. Ya it helps me see the target, which is I guess the important part, but it takes time to make sure I land on it, stay supported & take off safely as opposed to stepping into position, engaging the target(s) & moving to the next shooting position if there is one. Yes, it should be possible for all the shooters to make the shot, in some fashion - but that height can be a disadvantage is just part of the sport - almost every port I've encountered has been too short for me to easily shoot out of. I've heard this before, but you have the ability to get low, I can't get taller. I understand where you are coming from as some of my good friends are vertically challenged. Having said that sometimes there is no other option as allowing a shorter person to shoot up at a target creates a safyey issue dependi g on berm height. That could just be one reason though and not always the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 If I understand the problem, as described, is not an issue of the height or size of the port. It is an issue of the placement of the noshoot. It sounds as if the no shoot is forward of the target such that the angle of fire needed to get a shot at the target keeps anyone below a certain height from having a clear shot. Without actually seeing the stage design, it's hard to comment but it seems like it is something that could have been avoided by moving the no shoot closer or stapling it onto the target. Whatever the reason, it's a design error and is no different than having a port that is too high so it could easily be argued as being illegal unless some provisions had been made such as a platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 If you put a step or platform there then it has to stay there for every shooter. As mentioned above, the ports just need to be cut long enough to work for everybody. Actually I'm not sure you do...... I've seen start positions -- hands on marks -- with different height marks for competitors above/below a certain height..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3180 Posted April 7, 2014 Author Share Posted April 7, 2014 If I understand the problem, as described, is not an issue of the height or size of the port. It is an issue of the placement of the noshoot. It sounds as if the no shoot is forward of the target such that the angle of fire needed to get a shot at the target keeps anyone below a certain height from having a clear shot. That exactly what happened in my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I would call the RM to make adjustments to the wall/port that would allow all the shooters to view the target. Ports can be lengthened vertically to take care of this. Bring it up before you shoot though. A7 last year Michelle Viscusi requested a box to stand on at a port and got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrVvrroomm Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 The stage in question was Stage 9 - Don't Lose Your Shirt at the 2013 Area 3 Championship. My wife was the shooter in question. She is 5' 4". I'm sure she wasn't the shortest person shooting. It was not a no-shoot in front of a scoring target, it was a big wooden wire spool that completely covered the target for her. There was only one port from which it could be shot. She could not even see the target, but knew it was there from the walk-through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L3324temp Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 I've seen platforms provided many times for shorter shooters. Taller shooters just stand behind them if they don't need to use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 The stage in question was Stage 9 - Don't Lose Your Shirt at the 2013 Area 3 Championship. My wife was the shooter in question. She is 5' 4". I'm sure she wasn't the shortest person shooting. It was not a no-shoot in front of a scoring target, it was a big wooden wire spool that completely covered the target for her. There was only one port from which it could be shot. She could not even see the target, but knew it was there from the walk-through. Hm. You mean this stage? http://youtu.be/5yTsx7CQIF0?t=8m25s ...because I remember that stage pretty well (I was the CRO for that stage, actually) and all of the ports but one were really low-cut, and there were some barrels and walls (including more ports in the interior of the stage) but I don't recall any spools (maybe I'm misremembering, though I don't think so). Spools were certainly used in that way on stage 12, though, and I could see that possibly being an issue there. (I recall having some not-fun shots there, actually.) If it was stage 9, why didn't anyone say anything? If a shooter can't see a target, it is pretty common to get a block to stand on for their run. No one mentioned any issues (ever) with seeing any targets on that stage, and it makes it difficult to fix issues if no one says anything...and we certainly don't want people taking random shots. Sure it wasn't this stage? http://youtu.be/5yTsx7CQIF0?t=1m42s ....anyway, point being: the range officials during match setup try to make sure that sort of thing won't happen in the first place. In the event that it does happen, the shooter has to say something to the CRO of the stage, after what the RM will give permission for accommodations to be made. Can't shoot the stage if you can't see the targets, and boxes and steps have been used plenty of times in the past in situations like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Tip for set-up crew and stage staff: When evaluating the stage for shoot throughs, etc, also bend your knees to lower your height to about 5 feet tall -- this may help you identify and fix such a situation during set-up...... Yep, we used to have some vertically challenged competitors at out matches...... ....and they taught us to do this proactively..... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 If you put a step or platform there then it has to stay there for every shooter. As mentioned above, the ports just need to be cut long enough to work for everybody. Actually I'm not sure you do...... I've seen start positions -- hands on marks -- with different height marks for competitors above/below a certain height..... Not from my experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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