Define Gaming

[GOF]

If more experienced competitive shooters, with a better knowledge of both the Rule Book and competitive shooting in general, were appointed as SOs, this would not be an issue. Unfortunately, you can join IDPA as your first competitive shooting experience on a Monday... take a SO class on Wednesday... and lord it over MA Class shooters who have been in IDPA for over a decade, and thoroughly understand the Rule Book.

Hey! I'm a SO! I'll tell ya how to do it!

That's the biggest problem with IDPA and I perasonally have seen it from the World Championships, down through four Nationals, and a half-dozen State Championships. You have MM Class SO who have no idea what they are doing.... but, By Golly!... they're gonna do it.

Gamers? They know the Rule Book well. The MM Class SOs? Not so much.

You know, I've been reading your rantings about MM SO's for over a year now.

Did one of them kick your dog or something? Marry your daughter? What is the problem??

You get MM SO's because they have volunteered to do it. Nobody forced them. They're trying to help out the game. They're involved.

If you've got a problem with MM SO's and it really, really bothers you, shoot something else. You're obviously not happy with the current state of affairs.

I just had to go back and delete about 80% of this message as I was getting carried away a bit so I'll end it now.

Also, please let us all know of which SO shot his first match on Monday, got his SO on Wednesday and wound up at a major match on Saturday. I do believe you've taken a few liberties with your time lines.

AD

,

I guess you'll just have to read a few more of my rants on inexperienced SOs, until IDPA sets some standards as to "time in sport"

and "skill level" required to be a SO.

I've seen plenty of MM SOs who did not know the Rule Book. Quick example from a match last Sunday. COF had some non-threats close to threat targets.. Vickers stage. Shooter A engaged the threats, wasn't happy with his hits, engaged them some more, and managed to double tap a non-threat. MM SO looked at the two holes in the non threat target, and the four holes in the threat target, and determined that since the non threat was hit twice he would tape over the two best hits on the threat target.

What? Where does that come from? Unfortunately, the shooter was new and knew the Rule Book about as well as the SO and didn't challenge it. By the time I and the MD heard about it, it was too late to change the call.

Another example -- Sanctioned Match in FL several years ago. One stage had a SO who was an officious jerk, with only marginal knowledge of the Rule Book... but thought he was God's Gift to the shooting world.

At the awards ceremony following the match he won High Novice in SSP.

I could go on... and on... and on. But won't.

You'll just have to stay tuned for my next rant on the subject.

[tiger49931]

^{To me its all a game and a fun one that i enjoy. I dont get paid to do this so i take full advantage of every opportunity i can. To me gaming is kinda the spirit of the game and is defined by where you wanna play. you gonna run around in your tennis shoes or buy a set of merril hiking shoes with agressive tread or get a set of solomon shoes you only wear at matches? Blue jeans or tactical pants or higher end shooters pants again only for matches and not daily wear. Gun basic right outta the box $ 425 ruger or $800 M&P with all the goodies trigger set low and apex kit with all the tape your allowed or the $2000 2011 in 9mm and all the work legally allowed. Stock ammo or reloads at full power or reloads at just barely above power factor. the list goes on and on and on.}

Shoot what ya want and if you get beat by the $6,000 man with top of the line what ever just laugh and say to your self i only spent $700 and you only beat me by 2 seconds.. lol that averages out to $1100 a 1/2 second or better yet beat him and tell him if you would have spent as much as he did you would have walked him like a dog.. hahahahaha but for the love of god HAVE FUN.

As far as SO and last sunday it was just as much the shooters fault for not know the rules also. Remember if you dont know your rights, you dont have any. but again just my 2c

[macgulley]

Gaming is anyone posessing a better plan/gun/equipment/skillset than me. And it is WRONG!

This nails it.

[GOF]

As far as SO and last sunday it was just as much the shooters fault for not know the rules also. Remember if you dont know your rights, you dont have any. but again just my 2c

The problem with that philosophy is that IDPA seems to exist on new shooters. I know one club in my area that normally runs 100+ shooters a match. Of those, over 50% are Unclassified or Novices. They don't know the Rules and haven't been in the game long enough to learn them the way most shooters do -- 3 seconds at a time.

The SO is supposed to be (at least according to the Rule Book) an Ambassador for the sport. And, one might also think, a repository of the knowledge required to assist new shooters.

Sadly, that is not always the case. In fact, given the new Rule Book and Recertification procedures it is estimated that IDPA lost somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-40% of the experienced SOs they had. No problem? Just hold more classes and make more SOs?

Not really. IDPA has decided to trim the number of SOIs to five a state. In north Florida, two veteran SOIs just got decertified. There is now not a single SOI in a portion of Florida that has five active IDPA clubs hosting over 175 individual shooters.

At a match two weeks ago in that area I had a conversation with the MD who lamented the fact that with the normal attrition rate, and the lack of SOIs, that he would have a problem finding enough competent SOs to run a match.

A week later, at another area match, another MD put it more succintly -- "IDPA is doing it's best to shoot itself in the foot."

These are gentelmen who have been involved with IDPA for almost a decade and are MA class shooters and experienced SOs.

If IDPA lacks quality SOs... which current policies seem bent upon achieving... then have fun!

[newmexicocrawler]

If its legal than its OK.....

[ac4wordplay]

... IDPA has decided to trim the number of SOIs to five a state...

Five SOI per state? Is this correct? (5 SOI x 50 states = 250 SOI in the U.S.)

Or, did you mean that each SOI covers five states (e.g.: five states per SOI)? (50 states in the US / 5 states per SOI = 10 SOI in the U.S.)

If we had five SOI in my state we might actually be able to get an SO class scheduled. We've probably been waiting two years - or longer!

[Agent #1911]

As far as SO and last sunday it was just as much the shooters fault for not know the rules also. Remember if you dont know your rights, you dont have any. but again just my 2c

The problem with that philosophy is that IDPA seems to exist on new shooters. I know one club in my area that normally runs 100+ shooters a match. Of those, over 50% are Unclassified or Novices. They don't know the Rules and haven't been in the game long enough to learn them the way most shooters do -- 3 seconds at a time.

The SO is supposed to be (at least according to the Rule Book) an Ambassador for the sport. And, one might also think, a repository of the knowledge required to assist new shooters.

Sadly, that is not always the case. In fact, given the new Rule Book and Recertification procedures it is estimated that IDPA lost somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-40% of the experienced SOs they had. No problem? Just hold more classes and make more SOs?

Not really. IDPA has decided to trim the number of SOIs to five a state. In north Florida, two veteran SOIs just got decertified. There is now not a single SOI in a portion of Florida that has five active IDPA clubs hosting over 175 individual shooters.

At a match two weeks ago in that area I had a conversation with the MD who lamented the fact that with the normal attrition rate, and the lack of SOIs, that he would have a problem finding enough competent SOs to run a match.

A week later, at another area match, another MD put it more succintly -- "IDPA is doing it's best to shoot itself in the foot."

These are gentelmen who have been involved with IDPA for almost a decade and are MA class shooters and experienced SOs.

If IDPA lacks quality SOs... which current policies seem bent upon achieving... then have fun!

I completely agree.

now there is no reload on the move (even behind cover). soon there will be no shooting on the move. forget about practice. you don't need any in IDPA

Edited December 4, 2013 by Agent #1911

[BillinTR]

One question I have to ask is why the complaint about inexperienced SO's has to refer to "MM SO's"? I have been in IDPA for about 7 years now. Due to time and money constraints I only shoot local matches. I would love to be able to help out by SO'ing as soon as I can take the course. At this point I believe I know the rule book pretty well and assume that I would learn anything more that I need to know at the course.

But I am a fairly older guy and don't have the hand eye coordination I used to. So I may not ever get beyond MM classification. So why beat up on us MM shooters who want to help? Do you feel that someone has to be EX or MA class before you can be an SO?

[Glocktogo]

One question I have to ask is why the complaint about inexperienced SO's has to refer to "MM SO's"? I have been in IDPA for about 7 years now. Due to time and money constraints I only shoot local matches. I would love to be able to help out by SO'ing as soon as I can take the course. At this point I believe I know the rule book pretty well and assume that I would learn anything more that I need to know at the course.

But I am a fairly older guy and don't have the hand eye coordination I used to. So I may not ever get beyond MM classification. So why beat up on us MM shooters who want to help? Do you feel that someone has to be EX or MA class before you can be an SO?

No, you just have to be paid, so that way you're a "professional SO"!

The reason so many SO's are MM (and SS) is because there a lot of them who are invested in the continuation of the sport. Many of the EX, MA & DM shooters care more about their own personal performance than what it takes to put on a quality event. A small percentage of them may work one sanctioned match a year. At that rate, most who shoot major matches will never see them behind a timer. The funny thing is when you hear all the shooters who complain that SO's have it easy as shooters. If that were true, we'd be knee deep in MA & DM SO's!

FWIW, it's a LOT easier to complain about the quality of the officiating, than it is to do something about it. Do the complainers ever offer to work as an SOI? Do they offer to mentor SO's at matches? Do they offer to hold SO/Shooter clinics so the SO's get a different perspective on running shooters? Do they invite SO's to practice days? The answer is almost always no. So remember when someone is complaining about your lot in life, it most likely means they're not happy with THEIR lot in life. You walk away smiling, they don't. Which would you rather be?

Edited December 13, 2013 by Glocktogo

[chirpy]

You don't necessarily become a SO to advance your shooting skills IMHO. You do that to help out and become more familiar with the rules and etc. I have been shooting USPSA for over 30 years and IDPA since the beginning almost. I help out wherever I am able but have never had the desire to become a SO/RO because I don't have that much time to dedicate. I have also helped in other ways, like being Secretary for two clubs (at different times). Clubs I shoot at love people like me because I can be depended on to do most anything they ask. They also love individuals like you that do have the time and desire to become RO/SO. I respect your desire to become a SO and also those that already are!!!!!

Richard

[Craig N]

^{To me its all a game and a fun one that i enjoy. I dont get paid to do this so i take full advantage of every opportunity i can. To me gaming is kinda the spirit of the game and is defined by where you wanna play. you gonna run around in your tennis shoes or buy a set of merril hiking shoes with agressive tread or get a set of solomon shoes you only wear at matches? Blue jeans or tactical pants or higher end shooters pants again only for matches and not daily wear. Gun basic right outta the box $ 425 ruger or $800 M&P with all the goodies trigger set low and apex kit with all the tape your allowed or the $2000 2011 in 9mm and all the work legally allowed. Stock ammo or reloads at full power or reloads at just barely above power factor. the list goes on and on and on.}

Shoot what ya want and if you get beat by the $6,000 man with top of the line what ever just laugh and say to your self i only spent $700 and you only beat me by 2 seconds.. lol that averages out to $1100 a 1/2 second or better yet beat him and tell him if you would have spent as much as he did you would have walked him like a dog.. hahahahaha but for the love of god HAVE FUN.

As far as SO and last sunday it was just as much the shooters fault for not know the rules also. Remember if you dont know your rights, you dont have any. but again just my 2c

I have seen people call hits on NTs when it hit the edge of the target but didn't break the scoring prefs. I always check my NT hits just to be sure I'm not getting awards PEs I didnt earn. I only want the ones I earn.

[theblacknight]

^{To me its all a game and a fun one that i enjoy. I dont get paid to do this so i take full advantage of every opportunity i can. To me gaming is kinda the spirit of the game and is defined by where you wanna play. you gonna run around in your tennis shoes or buy a set of merril hiking shoes with agressive tread or get a set of solomon shoes you only wear at matches? Blue jeans or tactical pants or higher end shooters pants again only for matches and not daily wear. Gun basic right outta the box $ 425 ruger or $800 M&P with all the goodies trigger set low and apex kit with all the tape your allowed or the $2000 2011 in 9mm and all the work legally allowed. Stock ammo or reloads at full power or reloads at just barely above power factor. the list goes on and on and on.}

Shoot what ya want and if you get beat by the $6,000 man with top of the line what ever just laugh and say to your self i only spent $700 and you only beat me by 2 seconds.. lol that averages out to $1100 a 1/2 second or better yet beat him and tell him if you would have spent as much as he did you would have walked him like a dog.. hahahahaha but for the love of god HAVE FUN.

As far as SO and last sunday it was just as much the shooters fault for not know the rules also. Remember if you dont know your rights, you dont have any. but again just my 2c

It's a pretty novice move to look at someone who outright beat you and try to blame your lack of performance on gear. There is nothing in the rulebook that mentions anything about being the guy with a stock p95 and tennis shoes shooting WWB makes you more cool then the guy who plays the game as it is, and has put in the time to get the gear and skill it takes to win.

Also, paying 800$ for a NIB M&P is a little inflated.

[dafdov368]

^{To me its all a game and a fun one that i enjoy. I dont get paid to do this so i take full advantage of every opportunity i can. To me gaming is kinda the spirit of the game and is defined by where you wanna play. you gonna run around in your tennis shoes or buy a set of merril hiking shoes with agressive tread or get a set of solomon shoes you only wear at matches? Blue jeans or tactical pants or higher end shooters pants again only for matches and not daily wear. Gun basic right outta the box $ 425 ruger or $800 M&P with all the goodies trigger set low and apex kit with all the tape your allowed or the $2000 2011 in 9mm and all the work legally allowed. Stock ammo or reloads at full power or reloads at just barely above power factor. the list goes on and on and on.}

Shoot what ya want and if you get beat by the $6,000 man with top of the line what ever just laugh and say to your self i only spent $700 and you only beat me by 2 seconds.. lol that averages out to $1100 a 1/2 second or better yet beat him and tell him if you would have spent as much as he did you would have walked him like a dog.. hahahahaha but for the love of god HAVE FUN.

As far as SO and last sunday it was just as much the shooters fault for not know the rules also. Remember if you dont know your rights, you dont have any. but again just my 2c

If you get beat by Nils Jonasson (who's clearly a gamer because he smokes everyone) with his incredibly beautiful M2i, you still got beat. Regardless how much you have invested in your shooting gear.

I've found that I shoot a 2011 better than a Glock, M&P, or Springfield. But still believe it's the Indian, and not the arrow.

[IdahoShooter]

There is nothing in the rulebook that mentions anything about being the guy with a stock p95 and tennis shoes shooting WWB makes you more cool then the guy who plays the game as it is, and has put in the time to get the gear and skill it takes to win.

Are you sure, cuz, I'm pretty sure that's in there somewhere...

Honestly, I'm sick and tired of trying to defend gaming. Gaming is understanding the rules... like chess... if I execute an "en passant" move... and you don't know that rule, because you don't understand the game, does that mean I just cheated?

In IDPA the answer seems to be Yes more often than No...

I didn't work my butt off to get the ranking in IDPA that I have, to be told that I cheated to get it. It's a game people, a competition, I can and will go faster than you... get over it and practice.

[waynes_world_45]

Life is a game. Learn the rules and play better than everyone else.

[steel1212]

I love it when I get called a "gamer". Because unless your shooting a j frame from your pocket holster with plus P ammo so are you!

[RammerJammer]

I love it when I get called a "gamer". Because unless your shooting a j frame from your pocket holster with plus P ammo so are you!

If you win with a j frame you are still a gamer. Lose with a 3k custom you are one of us.

[macgulley]

If it's acknowledged to be a game, why would gaming be frowned upon? Can't have it both ways.

[MetropolisLake]

I've always considered gamers to be guys like larrys1911 who will buy every gizzy and book and try ever trick to win, but will stay within the rulebook. In larry's case he's mighty serious about staying honest but in the case of others, when you run the edge sometimes you go over it some, and end up cheating. Which is probably why the term gamer has a vague definition to some.

In the 3-gun world I've always taken "gamers" to be a slang reference to guys who play first-person shooter games on the PC, playstation, or X-box. If you do that a lot, you're universally considered to be a gamer. Some of these sports are more or less just like running stationary courses like "the pit" in Call of Duty 2 in real life so I don't think it's a stretch to use the term in this manner. I know plenty of video game geeks who lovingly consider themselves and everybody else gamers so it's the first thing I think of.

When I hear somebody use the term "gaming", I think it means "gaming the system", doing what you are saying. Example being just throwing a round in the general direction of a long rifle target, knowing you’ll miss and get a failure to neutralize penalty, but you avoided a failure to engage penalty, and your speed of doing this is less than what you would have spent actually trying to hit the thing, so you actually came out ahead. It's not in the spirit of the meet yet it's not illegal.

Edited December 18, 2013 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[theblacknight]

Hey guys, you do realize IDPA isnt a game, but a shooting event right? The use of tactics are only allowed in the marketing portion of IDPA.

And in a extreme bout of irony, many defensive instructors have made the point to let people know that gun handling skills are equal or maybe less important then mindset and tactics. You know, the thinking part that must happen however short or long or unaware the shooter is that thinking is happening. That part, in IDPA, is looked down at.

[Moltke]

Gaming should be thought of as "optimizing your actions within the confines of the rules". I don't understand why people think gaming is a bad thing, CHEATING is a bad thing. Every sport has gaming and every high level competitor for every sport figures out how to do it successfully. Apply your skills and intellect to the problem in front of you, don't break the rules, and solve it the best way you can.

The fact that IDPA rules do not reflect real world defensive shooting practices is irrelevant.

[ErichF]

IDPA is full of ironies, such as having the most rules of any other shooting GAME yet proposes to be the most "real-life". Sorry, in real life defense, there are no rules. Safety Officers are a misnomer. SOs have to account for a huge list of procedural penalties, most of which have no basis in safety and require attention elsewhere than the gun in the shooter's hands. They really should be called referees or umpires with a shot timer.

But, what do I care? I. Don't. Play. Anyway. I was hoping to start shooting IDPA with the release of the new rules. In fact I will not be playing due in part to the new rules.

[Sidewinder6]

No rules in self defense?

I really love the people that say that on Internet forums. The difference is swapping 3 seconds for a very expensive legal review.

And I guarantee you will discover rules.

Gaming is the art of tactics. Cut corners without getting busted for it.

Pushing the limits to break away from the way everyone else is doing something.

Even if that's how you are supposed to do something. The results are predictable.