ausshooter Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 http://apdmarksmanshipteam.org/texas-law-enforcement-multigun-championship This will be the second year for it. The match filled quickly and was a great time. Great sponsors too. The APD guys did a fantastic job on all the leg work. The majority on the team are experienced competitors and have run big matches for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackson923 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Why is the Fire Dept always left out in the LEO/MIL category? Because you don't carry a gun for a living. One of the points of a LEO match is to get cops using the duty gear in a competition environment. Pat Wow Pat you mentioned in an earlier post about painting with a broad brush, troll much? I carry everyday. Does this mean that the MIL portion of the LEO/MIL bring their M4's, SAW's and 240 Bravos to matches since it's geared for LEO's to use their duty gear? I bet the 240 Bravo is great on the up close hoser stages. You certainly missed the point of my question, I guess you can't group Firefighters in with LEO and MIL because those two categories are so similar. I hope that your keen Alaskan Police skills allow you to see the sarcasm in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) Why is the Fire Dept always left out in the LEO/MIL category? Because you don't carry a gun for a living. One of the points of a LEO match is to get cops using the duty gear in a competition environment. Pat Wow Pat you mentioned in an earlier post about painting with a broad brush, troll much? I carry everyday. Does this mean that the MIL portion of the LEO/MIL bring their M4's, SAW's and 240 Bravos to matches since it's geared for LEO's to use their duty gear? I bet the 240 Bravo is great on the up close hoser stages. You certainly missed the point of my question, I guess you can't group Firefighters in with LEO and MIL because those two categories are so similar. I hope that your keen Alaskan Police skills allow you to see the sarcasm in this. I have love and respect for Firefighters but LEO and military matches are about building skills that could save our lives on the job. Shooting is not a part of being a firefighter. Fire marshals would be welcome with their issued weapon. I would not ask to be a part of a Fireman only event either. As for the military side, I used to host LEO/Mil matches here with the Coastguard and my agency and the Troopers all competing. The Coastguard guys got permission to use their weapons. They used 870's M16's and Sig DAK's. Again the idea at least when I am holding the matches is to give these guys an avenue to shoot their duty gear as they would at work in a competitive environment. When you let in people who are not issued guns you invariably get race gear and you also get people who may or may not have had any formal training and then you have safety concerns. With LEO matches I run a hot range just as they would in real life. Pat Edited March 11, 2014 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acespeedy Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Whatever happened to leo's having thick skin, lol. Whenever I see a new shooter either leo or civi I always try to make them feel welcome, and if they look like they are open to some suggestions I try to help them figure out the game. As far as the fire department, I think their investigators carry firearms for a living so why shouldn't they be allowed to play in cop games. I think I've been flagged/muzzled more in training than I ever have or will by competition shooters. Now going to a public range is a different story, I've never seen so many "seasoned shooters" instruct "new shooters" with so many bad habits that the few times I've gone i end up picking up my gear an calling it an early day before someone gets shot or shoots somebody. The guys that win most Le matches are the same ones that are winning/competing in the other gun games, 3G, Uspsa, Carbine...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spd522 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 My first competitions were LE only events back in the early 80s. Eventually, they started evolving into 3 gun events. Nothing like the 3 Gun stuff of today, but it was all duty gear, pump shotguns, retention holsters etc. It was a good time. NRA TPC matches I have been to allowed LE to be current full time, part time, reserve, retired, corrections, or basically anyone who carried a commision and gun. And for military, it was pretty much the same, full time, reserves, and retired. They used to hold them the first three years of inception at Bear Creek Tactical in Stockton MO. They would have 70-80 participants each time. Two divisions, Tactical where you could use a semiauto shotgun and a scoped rifle, and Patrol with a pump only and iron sighted rifle. Duty gear, no big magwells or custom STI pistols. They were a lot of fun but for reasons unknown, this particular match was dropped from the venue. There was a good response from the LE/Mil community for these events. Guys shot with brothers of like minds and didn't feel like they were competing against pros. It was a much more relaxed environment. Sounds like a good idea to me. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Once ours master getting their fingers out of the trigger guard before holstering, this will be a great idea, for them and us.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgtsvi Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I believe the past 2 3 gun Nation champions have been LE, so lumping all LE's in a group of bad shooters isn't really fair. There are bad examples of skill in many professions, such as doctors and lawyers, but I give them all a fair shake until they prove me different. I'm the only one at my large department that shoots competitively, and that's not for lack of trying. Most of the deputies at my agency just don't get a big thrill out of going to the range, but they aren't unsafe. There are always a few, but we keep a watch on them and make sure they stay safe. I agree that a lot of LE's like shooting with each other instead of having civilians around judging their ability. We hosted the Texas Narcotics Association 3 gun match last year and had a great turnout, so there is an interest in the sport. I just hope we can bring more along each year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunther Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 You might get more shooters in a ladies only match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caz41 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 This thread just got to a point that reminds me of why I don't go to some other forums anymore. T&N wants to start up a new match and was looking for input on that. If you feel offended because you don't fall into the group that would be included in the match, oh well there's plenty of other matches to shoot. Then you should be stomping your feet because you can't shoot the lady only 3 gun match, or go to the MGM junior camp. But really what different are they? A match targeting a specific group of society to introduce them to shooting 3 gun. I think what they are attempting to do is a great idea to introduce new shooters to the sport. Everyone has to start somewhere and this would be a good chance to get a start for a specific group of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Whatever happened to leo's having thick skin, lol. Whenever I see a new shooter either leo or civi I always try to make them feel welcome, and if they look like they are open to some suggestions I try to help them figure out the game. As far as the fire department, I think their investigators carry firearms for a living so why shouldn't they be allowed to play in cop games. I think I've been flagged/muzzled more in training than I ever have or will by competition shooters. Now going to a public range is a different story, I've never seen so many "seasoned shooters" instruct "new shooters" with so many bad habits that the few times I've gone i end up picking up my gear an calling it an early day before someone gets shot or shoots somebody. The guys that win most Le matches are the same ones that are winning/competing in the other gun games, 3G, Uspsa, Carbine...... Having a thick skin does not mean you have to ignore insults. Frankly that skin is getting worn down by all the anti cop hate of late due to political events beyond our control. But that is another topic. The point is it gets old having people do hit and run attacks like this in the forum. We would not tolerate them on soldiers and others who serve our country. Like caz41 said. There are plenty of matches out there for everyone else no reason to get butt hurt over not being able to attend a LEO or military match. If someone wanted to set up a match for veterans only I would not get upset about not being able to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spd522 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 This thread just got to a point that reminds me of why I don't go to some other forums anymore. T&N wants to start up a new match and was looking for input on that. If you feel offended because you don't fall into the group that would be included in the match, oh well there's plenty of other matches to shoot. Then you should be stomping your feet because you can't shoot the lady only 3 gun match, or go to the MGM junior camp. But really what different are they? A match targeting a specific group of society to introduce them to shooting 3 gun. I think what they are attempting to do is a great idea to introduce new shooters to the sport. Everyone has to start somewhere and this would be a good chance to get a start for a specific group of people. Thank you Chris. Well said. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) I would even go so far as to suggest to those that get butt hurt over not being allowed to shoot a LE only match to suck-it-up-buttercup and VOLUNTEER to RO or otherwise work the match. Maybe even offer up some instruction to the cops oriented to 3 gun competitions. I commend T&N for considering starting one. jj (eta; I am not LE if that matters) Edited March 12, 2014 by RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Some cops are great shooters, some aren't, they're people like everyone else. If someone decides to become a good shooter, chances are they will. If you hold a LEO / MIL match and have them shoot with their duty gear or equivalent, at least you've leveled the playing field a bit. But more likely the top shooters who already do competitions while also being LEO / MIL are going to come too, and the average guys are going to get stomped. I'm neither LE or MIL (anymore) but would like to se this happen, or more LE/MIL guys shooting regularly. Maybe instead set up a competition and have their match fee be reduced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCringleberry Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Come on PoPo, let's be real here, there are many LEO who are very average or poor shooters. I hate to admit it but it is the truth. I was a firearms instructor/FTO for years and I was dumbfounded to see that so many of my LEO brothers and sisters did not take their firearms skills and training serious. There were a few great shooters and some horrible shooters but a ton in the middle that just wanted to get their quals over with. On top of that, the qual course was usually the last time they shot or cleaned their sidearm until the next mandatory shoot. I even had an officer tell me she didn't like guns - I couldn't believe it! Anyway, don't be so harsh, most things on here are just opinion but there is a lot of truth also. I think LEO matches would be great - it levels the playing field somewhat and would help spark some interest to go out with others using their duty gear. Remember some other matches started out or are currently LEO only. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Yes lets get real. I have had more guns pointed at me by new shooters fumbling at matches than I have ever had in stressful (physically and mentally) LEO training. Maybe so but those civilians don't depend on their firearms to save their lives and others...I expect more from our trained LEO/MIL. I was both and I hold myself to a higher standard due to my responsibilities. But to say we are all poor incompetent shooters as gixxerjunky states is a flat out lie. I didn't take his comment as such and it's his opinion...so what. Furthermore, if I started ranting and raving every time someone called me something bad or insulted me, I would have never made it out of Field Training. We have to be above the foolish comments and take them with a grain of salt but analyze the ones that have some truth to see where we can improve. I'm sure you saw the video of the Maine State Trooper who stopped the irate person back in 1992 - every police officer has seen it I'm sure. That's the kind of patience and restraint we must show towards insults and find a constructive way to respond. I do have a lot of respect for you and especially for the amount of rifle knowledge you have and share with us. Thanks for that! I also hope that T&N (those guys are awesome!!) gets this going - it would be nice to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Perhaps I am a bit too sensitive from hanging out in the GD section at Ar15.com. I will say that I have noticed a lot more negative comments towards cops on discussion forums since Sandy Hook last year. I mean exponentially. Its just getting old. Take care guys I am out of this one. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Sounds like a good idea. Brian Enos got his start at PPC matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Schmitt Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Shooting a local match Nov 2013, I guess cops cant be competitive with duty gear. Jay Edited March 13, 2014 by J.Schmitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spd522 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Shooting a local match Nov 2013, I guess cops cant be competitive with duty gear. SSC_0246.JPGSSC_0247.JPG Jay Yeah but you and Jomar sure try your best. There are a lot more LE shooting these matches than people know. Just because someone doesn't make it known doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Before I retired, I managed to get a few COF put together at our PD range for the guys on training day. Basically I would take what we were already training and make a field course out of it, but put a timer on the officer shooting. Guys that didn't really like range day were asking to do it again so they could beat the time of their fellow officer. Unfortunately, the Chief RO got wind of it and stopped it, thinking competition has no place on the street. He completely missed the point of it all and was too stubborn to listen. It was fun while it lasted. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I'm guessing this means only active Leo/mil. Wtf? You saying all the training we had in the past is BS? All the experience and not so great times carrying a gun means if yer not in a union or not on the current public dime don't bother? So a vet is not wanted in these silly assed matches? Have fun shooting with yer few friends, guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I'm guessing this means only active Leo/mil. Wtf? You saying all the training we had in the past is BS? All the experience and not so great times carrying a gun means if yer not in a union or not on the current public dime don't bother? So a vet is not wanted in these silly assed matches? Have fun shooting with yer few friends, guys. Actually most that I've seen include reserve and part time Mil/LEO, as well as those retired from the same. Fairly certain I saw that mentioned at least once in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I'm guessing this means only active Leo/mil. Wtf? You saying all the training we had in the past is BS? All the experience and not so great times carrying a gun means if yer not in a union or not on the current public dime don't bother? So a vet is not wanted in these silly assed matches? Have fun shooting with yer few friends, guys. Actually most that I've seen include reserve and part time Mil/LEO, as well as those retired from the same. Fairly certain I saw that mentioned at least once in this thread. Chuck-with all due respect, that includes a sh$tload of vets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKJD Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 If you're butthurt cause someone is having a match that your not invited to, then start your own match with Fireman, Vets, Astronauts only, whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I'm guessing this means only active Leo/mil. Wtf? You saying all the training we had in the past is BS? All the experience and not so great times carrying a gun means if yer not in a union or not on the current public dime don't bother? So a vet is not wanted in these silly assed matches? Have fun shooting with yer few friends, guys. Actually most that I've seen include reserve and part time Mil/LEO, as well as those retired from the same. Fairly certain I saw that mentioned at least once in this thread. Chuck-with all due respect, that includes a sh$tload of vets. What's your point? There are lots of cops also. I'd love to get 5% of them on the range for a competition. If we get 5% of vets I'd be equally happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Fatboy Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Why is the Fire Dept always left out in the LEO/MIL category? Because you don't carry a gun for a living. One of the points of a LEO match is to get cops using the duty gear in a competition environment. Pat Not true in Oklahoma the Fire Marshals carry side arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronsdmf Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Generally speaking this entire topic sounds like this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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