Coaching During a Stage: When, Where, and How Much?

[M118LR]

I try to help a new shooter out when I can. I usually do it after they are done. I tried to help a shooter one time that was missing a plate and was told not to, so I do not do it anymore. It even cause a problem.

[Mturnbull333]

This sport has to many puffed up range Rambos, get sick of these idiots treating our little 15 man home range shots like we were at championships ,our little matches are a place for the inexperienced to practice and have fun and newbies to learn the sport, these puffed up RO's should only shoot area matches and championships.

[Mike41]

I don't see anything wrong with coaching unless it becomes a distraction to the shooter.

Mike

[Stlhead]

The idea that every shooter gets exactly the same conditions is laughable. People get all puffed up when the subject of coaching rears its head, even at the so called "majors" we play this game for entertainment, nothing more. Our sport is not fair, life is not fair, if you don't like it then don't play. I say that if the rules allow it and the shooter wants it then let him or her have some coaching. It may help, or it may hurt, but I have found that people seem to have more fun at matches that allow coaching, I can't say if it is the coaching, my guess would be that it is the atmosphere that exists at the matches that allow it leading to a better shooter experience.

[jjw]

I'm mixed on this. I prefer the RO to let me make my own mistakes. For a new shooter, coach all you can. At the club level, it kinda depends on the shooter and their goals. Helping a good shooter out so they can place higher is different than helping a 78 year old out to have fun not bypass a target. I'll probably get some flames for that last sentence, but it's how I feel. But I know at one match I was RO'ing a buddy that was having a blazing run, but blew by a target. I probably would have been madder than he if I knew another shooter got coached on that stage.

But generally, I'm not a fan of coaching

101% agreement if the guy is slow or not real into 3 gun all help is good

i cant see coaching jeff cramlit. just get out of his way or he will run over L.O.L.

jjw.

[swedge58]

As a new shooter I have much appreciated the "coaching" I have received from knowledgable RO's. It honestly turned my first couple of matches into a great experience. This is how the sport grows. In all my years of competitive sports I have never been more nervous than my first 3 Gun. It was my first shooting sport match period. Once that buzzer went off something happened in my mind! Everything went numb and it was nice to have that RO saying slow down, squeeze that trigger. It's something I won't forget. Since then it's been nice to have people in my squad that come up with a game plan for a stage but with that I still have to go out and execute that game plan and make those shots. IMO some coaching only goes so far after that it's up to that person to perform. I have since asked numerous friends to come out and shoot a match with me. The majority of the time fear of performing badly stops them from trying. I always tell them not to worry its a great group of people who are willing to help you out. Everyone was once in that position.

[Sterling White]

This sport has to many puffed up range Rambos, get sick of these idiots treating our little 15 man home range shots like we were at championships ,our little matches are a place for the inexperienced to practice and have fun and newbies to learn the sport, these puffed up RO's should only shoot area matches and championships.

I've heard about this from others and suggest that a group of shooters sit down and discuss as a group. There is no reason that I can think of to not help one another at the local matches. It creates a level of animosity and can even foster some bad attitudes. The local matches should be something that every person (non-experienced to experienced) should be looking forward to. Attitude is everything.

[bigbrowndog]

couple of things: first and foremost i think we need and ICON for "special little snowflake" , and we need it right now!!!!

second, many of you said coaching was OK unless it distracts the shooter?? how do you know coaching is a distraction to the shooter when they are shooting????....... when they have to yell back at you to STFU!! Way too many people are trying to be "helpful", we may do this for entertainment or fun, but its still a competition. A shooter on the clock is listening for 2 things at the most from an RO,.... STOP and HIT!! personally if all steel would fall then HIT is not needed. if an RO tells me in the briefing that they will call hits, OK thats fine but if I hear something other than HIT but not sure what it was and have to ask the RO what they said then that should be RO interference (MHO). But technically its not!!

At a major match if you provide "coaching" to a shooter then you are stealing from all the other competitors that they are shooting against, irregardless of whether they win the match/stage/ or whatever, we participate in a sport that recognizes individual achievement,..... not best shooter and best supporting spectator

Now if calling hits/misses is allowed by the shooters friends, then the shooter should say they want that type of assistance to the RO so they know.

For a local match, by all means help and assist, but do not coach them for every shot, they need to depend on themselves to call hits, far too often I have seen new shooters hit a target and wait for the RO to call the hit for them becasue they became conditioned to them doing it, that type of behavior does not help new shooters.

My thoughts!!, you may not agree,

Trapr

[GuildSF4]

Personally I understand coaching at a local match, at a Major not so much.

couple of things: first and foremost i think we need and ICON for "special little snowflake" , and we need it right now!!!!

How about this one -

Or this one -

[LSnSC]

At our local matches I will help a new shooter stay out of trouble. After a stage is over maybe point out things they could have done differently to improve.

At anything with a prize table, no.

[mpeltier]

I say it shouldnt be allowed except at the local level for beginners. I have only seen it done at a higher level a few weeks ago at the USCA nationals. I have never seen so much coaching on stages in my life. They didnt stop anyone and it kept going on and on.

I noticed this at USCA as well. Even to the point that I personally witnessed a high finishing member of the super squad avoid a DNF penalty on a stage due to an RO coaching him. Coaching can not be applied evenly across the board to all shooters and absolutely can influence the outcome at a big match. Local match with new shooter, no problem. Big match, no thank you.

[TroyB]

As a new shooter, I seem to recall all of the coaching I received was after the COF which makes the most sense and I then have time to process the new information. I don't know how safe it is to try to coach a new shooter who has hearing protection and a loaded gun in their hands. Now, as an experienced shooter who doesn't shoot any major matches and hear the phase "it's just a club match" when something questionable happens with an experienced shooter or "hey, you forgot those targets". I don't see it a lot, but when I do, I'm sorry it does bother me a bit.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I've run the timer enough times to know when the shooter could use help. The match rules dictate when you can give it.

[Vespid_Wasp]

Coaching or commenting can be a hindrance as well. When you start hollering at the shooter, it can mess them up about as easily as help them.

A guy/gal is trying to hit a LR target and 4 people are yelling corrections at once, over the gunfire... Silence is the best policy in many cases.

This.

I've seen it hurt as often as I've seen it help.

At a club match, I am not going to complain about coaching a new shooter. Although I think in many cases it might be better for a shooter to make the mistake, see what they forgot after the stage is over, and thus commit to memory what they learned, rather than learning to rely on coaching.

At a major it should never be allowed. In a very limited number of situations I have seen ROs actually coach shooters, and I think this should be one thing specifically addressed among match staff, to never coach the shooters.

I was ROing a shotgun woods walk stage with a LOT of steel and it was easy to lose one. At the end of one shooter's run he asked me if he had missed any. My usual friendly inclination was to tell him but I restrained myself (he had indeed cleared all the steel). After that during the stage briefing I made it a point to tell all the shooters that I was unable to provide feedback to them on the status of their stage. A little preemptive action can prevent a bad situation later where some shooters gained an advantage through coaching.

[chenger]

If we are going to call this a sport, then we should allow coaching just like other professional sports allow. But I think it should come from a single pre-designated person, like a friend, teammate, spouse, etc. We can't have four people yelling out different things causing confusion.

For experienced shooters, unless the stage RO is a personal friend and agrees to coach, I don't think ROs should in any way be obligated to coach all shooters. I've been an RO, and that would be a nightmare.

For newbies, I absolutely believe that the ROs should be allowed to coach if the shooter requests it. There's a decent chance a newbie has a newbie friend, and we don't want the blind leading the blind. We need to create a safe and fun environment for new shooters, and giving them help, guidance, and support is a key way to get them coming back for more.

My 2c!

[Nuke8401]

I don't see anything wrong with coaching unless it becomes a distraction to the shooter.

Mike

My expectation/normal response when I hear an RO say something durring my COF is too stop because 1. The only time I expect him to say anything is when I am breaking a safety rule, 2. At a minimum the cost to my score will be more if I have to process what he says vice continue shooting and just take any penalties.

New shooters, I'm for helping them all I can, if they want it, before or after the buzzer.

If I see a RO coaching before it's my turn to shoot I make it a point to tell him NOT to coach me it's only a distraction.

Unless it's says coaching is ok in the rules, I don't think there is any place for it above club level matches.

[StealthyBlagga]

If we are going to call this a sport, then we should allow coaching just like other professional sports allow...

On the contrary, I'd venture to guess that the vast majority of individual sports do not have coaching WHILE THE PARTICIPANT IS ACTUALLY COMPETING - before and after, sure, but not during. This is especially true of sports where the participant has to perform mentally while on the clock. How often do you see a coach shouting instructions to a gymnast during their Olympic routine? How would you feel if Gary Kasparov was whispering instructions in the ear of your chess opponent?

Coaching has a time and place, but a major 3-Gun match is not it.

Edited December 17, 2013 by StealthyBlagga

[swedge58]

I guess this depends on what your definition of coaching is. I really don't consider telling any shooter that they missed a target during the COF coaching.

[Doug H.]

I guess this depends on what your definition of coaching is. I really don't consider telling any shooter that they missed a target during the COF coaching.

Telling a shooter that they missed a target is definitely coaching. At a major match you are on your own, the RO is there for safety and to mark penalties. Ringing or flashing steel should be called as hits (not misses). Paper targets, you pass at your own peril. To do otherwise is to change the final scores in favor of the unprepared.

Doug

Edited December 18, 2013 by Doug H.

[swedge58]

I guess this depends on what your definition of coaching is. I really don't consider telling any shooter that they missed a target during the COF coaching.

Telling a shooter that they missed a target is definitely coaching. At a major match you are on your own, the RO is there for safety and to mark penalties. Ringing or flashing steel should be called as hits (not misses). Paper targets, you pass at your own peril. To do otherwise is to change the final scores in favor of the unprepared.

Doug

I guess this depends on what your definition of coaching is. I really don't consider telling any shooter that they missed a target during the COF coaching.

Telling a shooter that they missed a target is definitely coaching. At a major match you are on your own, the RO is there for safety and to mark penalties. Ringing or flashing steel should be called as hits (not misses). Paper targets, you pass at your own peril. To do otherwise is to change the final scores in favor of the unprepared.Doug

That was my point. Anything that would change the final scores in the favor of the unprepared in my book is not coaching. It's the other C word.

Edited December 18, 2013 by swedge58

[Sterling White]

I think coaching means different things to different people. For example, a competitor has been coming to the matches for over a year and their scores stay below 50%. This person reaches out to one of the better competitors who agrees to take them under their wing. The result after 6 mos is that the scores are in the 75% range of the better shooters. Would you call this successful coaching or cheating? The art of coaching is much more than calling a shot on a long range steel. It's about everything we read in text books including but not limited to the economy of motion, attitude, stage planning, and ammo management.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Sterling White

[swedge58]

I think coaching means different things to different people. For example, a competitor has been coming to the matches for over a year and their scores stay below 50%. This person reaches out to one of the better competitors who agrees to take them under their wing. The result after 6 mos is that the scores are in the 75% range of the better shooters. Would you call this successful coaching or cheating? The art of coaching is much more than calling a shot on a long range steel. It's about everything we read in text books including but not limited to the economy of motion, attitude, stage planning, and ammo management.

I completely agree that would fall under the category of coaching. I soak in all the info I possibly can from better shooters. It has been a huge help to me. Again I was merely pointing out one scenerio that to me wouldn't fall under the category of coaching. I have blown by several targets in different matches and not once has anyone called them out and I wouldn't want them to. Everyone learns from mistakes.

[Dan Sierpina]

During the course of fire, (after the buzzer and before Unload and show clear) is coaching. The other stuff is training.

[CJW]

Let me just try an obvious answer to the OP...

Where: At matches where the rules allow it.

When: At those times where appropriate input will improve the shooter's safety, enjoyment, or performance.

How Much: To the extent desired by the competitor, allowed by the RO, and/or required by the situation (for potential safety issues).

I think that about covers it!

[ac4wordplay]

I like it ^^^ !