Sterling White Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Over the past 10 years or so I've seen quite a bit of variance in this area. At our local matches we encourage coaching to help new shooters and even experienced shooters perform at their best. What are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobS761 Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 I'm mixed on this. I prefer the RO to let me make my own mistakes. For a new shooter, coach all you can. At the club level, it kinda depends on the shooter and their goals. Helping a good shooter out so they can place higher is different than helping a 78 year old out to have fun not bypass a target. I'll probably get some flames for that last sentence, but it's how I feel. But I know at one match I was RO'ing a buddy that was having a blazing run, but blew by a target. I probably would have been madder than he if I knew another shooter got coached on that stage. But generally, I'm not a fan of coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Depends on the rules of the match. If the rules say it is allowed, I am all for it. If they do not allow it, I am totally against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Inexperienced shooters - definitely. Experienced shooters - can't think of an example where I would agree with coaching during the COF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 New shooters benefit most from coaching and that is a good thing. Growing the sport is key. 3 Gun is expensive to get into...and requires a lot of specialized knowledge which enhances the experience. I am pro coaching if it help grow our sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetropolisLake Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 As an overwhelmed first time shooter who had no chance of placing decently, I was glad that LeadHead here aka. Brian Vaught did some coaching at the last Rockcastle club meet. Keeping your mouth shut when otherwise decent shooters blow by targets may be one thing but when somebody is obviously struggling with a malfunction and the RO turns that embarassing situation into a real life shooting lesson right there on the spot, plus offers pointers afterwards, it's remembered. This non-elitist attitude is what attracts me to the sport the most. The newbies really appreciate it I can promise you that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mturnbull333 Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 My wife's first shoot which took her forever to get the confidence up to do, also she was not even a uspsa member. She was running a course of fire where there was a mandatory mag change, she was about to forget it so I said mag change, the RO freaked out and said he would DQ me and there was no coaching allowed and said it very sarcastically, well we have a small club probably 20 members and this guy was from out of town so it did not set well with the club, long story short the timer was taken from him and he was told to quite acting like a puffed up assclown, and that we were friendlier to our new shooters than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Depends on the rules of the match. If the rules say it is allowed, I am all for it. If they do not allow it, I am totally against it. Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 I tell new shooters that I'm happy to engage in any conversation they would like to have while on the clock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 I'm all for getting new shooters into the sport so I do and allow coaching (to a certain point) at my matches. Like it was mentioned earlier, if it was one of the regulars out there, we all would probably just laugh about what mistakes they made. If it's a newbie or the FNG, then helping a brother out is totally within the realm of sportsmanship and fostering a learning environment - that's what brings them back and gets them addicted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 (edited) When I'm holding the clock, here are my rules: Local match + new shooter = RO coaching generally encouraged, so long as it's not more distraction than help Local match + experienced shooter = everyone keep your mouth shut or I will give you a dirty look (that's English for "the stink eye") Major match + any shooter = everyone keep your mouth shut or I will penalize you On a personal note, I prefer everyone to keep quiet when I am shooting. I find being told where I am missing to be more distraction than benefit, and if I can't perform well on a stage by myself, then I don't deserve or want to benefit from outside help. Safety warnings are different - I always much prefer to call a warning early, maybe even distracting the shooter, than to let them get into trouble from which I can't extract them. Edited December 11, 2013 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 (edited) My wife's first shoot which took her forever to get the confidence up to do, also she was not even a uspsa member. She was running a course of fire where there was a mandatory mag change, she was about to forget it so I said mag change, the RO freaked out and said he would DQ me and there was no coaching allowed and said it very sarcastically, well we have a small club probably 20 members and this guy was from out of town so it did not set well with the club, long story short the timer was taken from him and he was told to quite acting like a puffed up assclown, and that we were friendlier to our new shooters than that. That's a bit harsh - how was the out-of-town RO to know your wife was a new shooter? If you did that when I was holding the clock, I'd be talking to you afterwards too - you did violate 8.6.2 after all (though freaking out and threatening DQ is a bit excessive for a Level 1, I'll agree). It's not like it's a major deal for a new shooter to blow by a target or miss a mag change... you could have kept quiet and then explained it to her afterwards. My view is that judicious coaching of a known-newbie by the RO at a local match is reasonable if the RO is comfortable doing so. Interjections from the peanut gallery (related or not) should not be acceptable. The only possible exception is a safety problem that the RO hasn't noticed (e.g. squib he didn't hear, person down range etc.). If you want to coach your wife at a match, perhaps get approval from the RM/MD to RO her yourself? Edited December 11, 2013 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted December 12, 2013 Author Share Posted December 12, 2013 This is probably where we differ in viewpoints. Our local matches have taken on the same type of spirit you would find at the Ironman match. If the shooter asks for coaching we provide it, ie., the RO or a buddy. If its an experienced shooter and they don't ask then we sit back and watch the show. Depends on the rules of the match. If the rules say it is allowed, I am all for it. If they do not allow it, I am totally against it. I agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevyoneton Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 If you want to coach your wife at a match, perhaps get approval from the RM/MD to RO her yourself? This! I know for a fact nobody at our club would disagree with this course of action. Assuming the person doing the ROing was qualified of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mturnbull333 Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 My wife's first shoot which took her forever to get the confidence up to do, also she was not even a uspsa member. She was running a course of fire where there was a mandatory mag change, she was about to forget it so I said mag change, the RO freaked out and said he would DQ me and there was no coaching allowed and said it very sarcastically, well we have a small club probably 20 members and this guy was from out of town so it did not set well with the club, long story short the timer was taken from him and he was told to quite acting like a puffed up assclown, and that we were friendlier to our new shooters than that. That's a bit harsh - how was the out-of-town RO to know your wife was a new shooter? If you did that when I was holding the clock, I'd be talking to you afterwards too - you did violate 8.6.2 after all (though freaking out and threatening DQ is a bit excessive for a Level 1, I'll agree). It's not like it's a major deal for a new shooter to blow by a target or miss a mag change... you could have kept quiet and then explained it to her afterwards. My view is that judicious coaching of a known-newbie by the RO at a local match is reasonable if the RO is comfortable doing so. Interjections from the peanut gallery (related or not) should not be acceptable. The only possible exception is a safety problem that the RO hasn't noticed (e.g. squib he didn't hear, person down range etc.). If you want to coach your wife at a match, perhaps get approval from the RM/MD to RO her yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mturnbull333 Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 My wife had been coming with me to shoots for years, the RO knew her and knew straight up it was her first shoot. She was shooting for fun not points since she was not even a USPSA member.it put a very bad taste in her mouth, I'm glad she continued to shoot, which by the way I no longer coach her. When a person finally gets up the courage to participate and some overbearing jerk who wants everybody to know he is in charge ruins it for her is just a little hard to swallow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted December 12, 2013 Author Share Posted December 12, 2013 It's because of situations like this that we pushed back on the old guard train of thought. I've noticed that attitudes are different and better when it is allowed. We encourage folks to be safe and have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GM2B Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 I say it shouldnt be allowed except at the local level for beginners. I have only seen it done at a higher level a few weeks ago at the USCA nationals. I have never seen so much coaching on stages in my life. They didnt stop anyone and it kept going on and on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 I tell shooters that are better than I am that I'm happy to engage in any conversation they would like to have while on the clock. Fixed it for you. Personal opinion of course.... If it is a major, the rule set should dis-allow it and it should not be tolerated at all between the beep and "range is clear". The shooter is there to prove his or her performance...not a show that they can listen to the coach during a team event. The ROs who start to "add-on" to the stage brief with additional tips, tricks and pointers in the walk-through, also should be disallowed and not tolerated. When the timer is not running, I think it does not matter if the competitors want to talk about the stage, plan. If it is a local match, then heck yes, coach new shooters all you want, provided they WANT to be coached. To me, the new shooter should make it clear if they want or need help. When I run the local 3Gun matches, when we get to a new stage, I will ask the new shooters if they want plan ideas, then go through the options. If they miss a target, or are jerking the trigger with an open bolt, I tell them. I'll also often softly toss in "reload" when I know they need to. On mixed load stages for shotgun, I will help them avoid birdshot on slug targets and vice-versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted December 13, 2013 Author Share Posted December 13, 2013 I say it shouldnt be allowed except at the local level for beginners. I have only seen it done at a higher level a few weeks ago at the USCA nationals. I have never seen so much coaching on stages in my life. They didnt stop anyone and it kept going on and on. Come out and shoot the Ironman with us one time and you will appreciate all the help you can get...LOL The stages are upwards of 40 pistol/rifle/shot each with multiple positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted December 13, 2013 Author Share Posted December 13, 2013 When I'm holding the clock, here are my rules: Local match + new shooter = RO coaching generally encouraged, so long as it's not more distraction than help Local match + experienced shooter = everyone keep your mouth shut or I will give you a dirty look (that's English for "the stink eye") Major match + any shooter = everyone keep your mouth shut or I will penalize you On a personal note, I prefer everyone to keep quiet when I am shooting. I find being told where I am missing to be more distraction than benefit, and if I can't perform well on a stage by myself, then I don't deserve or want to benefit from outside help. Safety warnings are different - I always much prefer to call a warning early, maybe even distracting the shooter, than to let them get into trouble from which I can't extract them. Why is it so important to not allow coaching? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 When I'm holding the clock, here are my rules: Local match + new shooter = RO coaching generally encouraged, so long as it's not more distraction than help Local match + experienced shooter = everyone keep your mouth shut or I will give you a dirty look (that's English for "the stink eye") Major match + any shooter = everyone keep your mouth shut or I will penalize you On a personal note, I prefer everyone to keep quiet when I am shooting. I find being told where I am missing to be more distraction than benefit, and if I can't perform well on a stage by myself, then I don't deserve or want to benefit from outside help. Safety warnings are different - I always much prefer to call a warning early, maybe even distracting the shooter, than to let them get into trouble from which I can't extract them. Why is it so important to not allow coaching? So the match is the same for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 (edited) Coaching or commenting can be a hindrance as well. When you start hollering at the shooter, it can mess them up about as easily as help them. A guy/gal is trying to hit a LR target and 4 people are yelling corrections at once, over the gunfire... Silence is the best policy in many cases. Edited December 13, 2013 by Lead-Head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 When I'm holding the clock, here are my rules: Local match + new shooter = RO coaching generally encouraged, so long as it's not more distraction than help Local match + experienced shooter = everyone keep your mouth shut or I will give you a dirty look (that's English for "the stink eye") Major match + any shooter = everyone keep your mouth shut or I will penalize you On a personal note, I prefer everyone to keep quiet when I am shooting. I find being told where I am missing to be more distraction than benefit, and if I can't perform well on a stage by myself, then I don't deserve or want to benefit from outside help. Safety warnings are different - I always much prefer to call a warning early, maybe even distracting the shooter, than to let them get into trouble from which I can't extract them. Why is it so important to not allow coaching? So the match is the same for everyone. ^THIS. The role of the RO is to provide a SAFE and EQUITABLE competitive environment. Period. Other than that, it should be like we aren't even there. This is a sport with winners and losers, not a kindergarten soccer game where every Special Little Snowflake™ gets a participation ribbon. When the beep goes off, its time for the shooter to prove what they are capable of.... if we allow coaching, then how are we to ensure that coaching is equitable for all shooters? Indeed, many a shooter has been awarded a reshoot for RO interference because the RO couldn't keep his mouth shut. Like I said above, I'm not completely indifferent to the need to ease the path for newbies in LOCAL matches, but at a MAJOR match it should be Big Boy/Girl Rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kampr Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 When I'm holding the clock, here are my rules: Local match + new shooter = RO coaching generally encouraged, so long as it's not more distraction than help Local match + experienced shooter = everyone keep your mouth shut or I will give you a dirty look (that's English for "the stink eye") Major match + any shooter = everyone keep your mouth shut or I will penalize you On a personal note, I prefer everyone to keep quiet when I am shooting. I find being told where I am missing to be more distraction than benefit, and if I can't perform well on a stage by myself, then I don't deserve or want to benefit from outside help. Safety warnings are different - I always much prefer to call a warning early, maybe even distracting the shooter, than to let them get into trouble from which I can't extract them. Why is it so important to not allow coaching? So the match is the same for everyone. ^THIS. The role of the RO is to provide a SAFE and EQUITABLE competitive environment. Period. Other than that, it should be like we aren't even there. This is a sport with winners and losers, not a kindergarten soccer game where every Special Little Snowflake™ gets a participation ribbon. When the beep goes off, its time for the shooter to prove what they are capable of.... if we allow coaching, then how are we to ensure that coaching is equitable for all shooters? Indeed, many a shooter has been awarded a reshoot for RO interference because the RO couldn't keep his mouth shut. Like I said above, I'm not completely indifferent to the need to ease the path for newbies in LOCAL matches, but at a MAJOR match it should be Big Boy/Girl Rules. ^^this^^ and incase anyone missed it,... special little snowflake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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