What would YOU do to improve IDPA?

[jdt]

I too noticed that in both IDPA and CAS the participants pretend that other things (tactics, costumes etc) are more important the scores or winning. I suggest that you remove all methods of scoring and call the SOs TCs. (Tactics Counselors) And then it becomes a controlled training session and all the aforementioned problems go away. But I guess we would have to come up with something to combat trainsmanship. And Failure to Train Right.

[shred]

Well, then you'd have to make it actually, like, Tactical first..

Honestly, why do people say "well, then we'd be like IPSC and we don't want that?". IDPA is a whole lot more like IPSC than it is to any other shooting sport. Why is that bad?

[ima45dv8]

But is IDPA different for the sake of being different, or different to be better?

I suspect...different just to be different.  IDPA was spun off the real gun game by malcontents unable to complete on a level playing field, and thus...the FTDR was born!

I can not disagree with to much on this thread but I believe this is just wrong. BW was very competitive, and very, very supportive of USPSA. He got screwed and then got mad and then set out, in my opinion, to make IDPA to be different more than anything else from USPSA.

I'm not trying to open old wounds or anything like that, but I was re-reading this thread and was intrigued (again) by this statement. Just for historical perspective, can somebody tell me what was done to Bill to make him want to leave IPSC/USPSA?

An email or PM is fine if deemed more appropriate.

TIA,

...Mark

[spd522]

As IDPA is based on defensive scenario's even the 18 round limit on COF's is extensive. Typically (help me out Mr. Hackathorn) very few shots are fired in a real life confrontation.

Very true and seldom would there be more than 2 threats. If there were, after dropping the 1st one, the rest would probably run anyway. But if there were realistic scenerios and only 1 or 2 targets to engage, no one would show up to shoot. All stages would consist of 3-5 rounds and be at 7 yards. Folks come to shoot as much as they can and if you think it is for some realistic tactical training, they are in trouble. Again I say- It's a game. And from someone who spent years on the street, with SWAT, and as a police instructor, it's not a very realistic game.

Physical fault lines are unecessary. Our sport is based on using available cover, period.

They should be unnecessary but when you have different interpretations of what is proper use of cover by SOs, you can never have a consistant standard. They do not see the targets from the same exact angle as the shooter so they cannot accurately call "cover" except in the obvious or flagrant violations. I watch inconsistant calls of cover by SOs at every match I have attended at every level. Take the monkey off the SO's back and make it a simple call.

[Joe D]

I have gotten cover calls when reloading. If I am behind cover enough to shoot am I not behind cover enough to reload? Some SOs thing you have to get all of your body behind cover to reload. Where do they get that?

[kraut]

Because it´s a good idea, isn´t it?

[Flexmoney]

JOE & Kraut,

Please stay on topic.

Thanks,

Administrator

[Joe D]

Sorry, thought I was addressing an area that needs to be changed or made more clear to improve IDPA.

[EricBudd]

Since every one else has an opinion, I guess I'll add my two cents as well.

First I'd like to see three divisions: Stock Service Pistol, Custom/Enhanced pistol, and Revolver. Pistols are limited to 10+1 rounds, Revolver is limited to 6 rounds. Power factor for less than 40 cal is 125 (Maybe 115-120 for 38 special) and 165 for 40 and above.

Divisions rules would stay the same except that single stack 45's would need to play with everyone else even if other guns hold two more rounds. If you want to shoot a single stack that is the game. If you feel at a disadvantage not having the extra two rounds, maybe you should carry something else.

(On an aside, I shoot SSP with an 8 shot 45 occasionally and I do hate the courses that require an extra reload. So what! You pick you gun and you shoot the game.)

The main reason for changing power factor is to eliminate the gaming. A 625 shooting 125 pf is a joke. I know, I shoot one. Same with a 40 tuned down to make 125 pf. If the game is about shooting full power ammo, then lets make the power factor requirements closer to real life.

[Mayonaise]

Divisions rules would stay the same except that single stack 45's would need to play with everyone else even if other guns hold two more rounds. If you want to shoot a single stack that is the game. If you feel at a disadvantage not having the extra two rounds, maybe you should carry something else.

Huh? So, eliminate CDP, the second largest division in the sport? Monkies will fly out of Madonna's butt before that happens.

[EricBudd]

I'm not saying that we should get rid of CDP (ok, I am) just that I don't see that we need a seperate division for just the 8 round, single stack 45 auto. Fan of the 1911 will tell you over and over how it is the greated design ever created. Superb ergonomics, a great trigger and an all around work of art. Maybe so, maybe not. I'm just suggesting that they play heads-up with all the other guns.

A division for DA guns, a division of SA guns, and a division for revolvers.

(BTW, what about changing the definition of DA to include double strike capability?)

[revchuck]

Remove the "no more than one non-threat per three threat" target rule. It's an easy change, and it's more realistic.

PF for .38 Special goes to 115; anything that starts with a "4" is 165, regardless of platform. Rationale is that it permits non-handloaders to buy ammo without being penalized on that basis. This is a big problem with .38 Special.

[rmills]

Divisions rules would stay the same except that single stack 45's would need to play with everyone else even if other guns hold two more rounds.  If you want to shoot a single stack that is the game.  If you feel at a disadvantage not having the extra two rounds, maybe you should carry something else. 

Huh? So, eliminate CDP, the second largest division in the sport? Monkies will fly out of Madonna's butt before that happens.

Didn't she already do that at a concert?

[Mayonaise]

I'm not saying that we should get rid of CDP (ok, I am) just that I don't see that we need a seperate division for just the 8 round, single stack 45 auto.  Fan of the 1911 will tell you over and over how it is the greated design ever created.  Superb ergonomics, a great trigger and an all around work of art.  Maybe so, maybe not.  I'm just suggesting that they play heads-up with all the other guns.

A division for DA guns, a division of SA guns, and a division for revolvers.

(BTW, what about changing the definition of DA to include double strike capability?)

What you really want is to eliminate all divisions. CDP shooters compete against CDP shooters, not SSP, ESP or SSR for all the obvious reasons. This is why there are no overall champions in IDPA. It doesn't make sense. The SSP and ESP Champs will likely do fewer reloads during a big match than the CDP or SSR champ. That, in addition to the difference in caliber and action therefore it's to be expected that their final score should be lower (assuming there's no malfunction issues etc...).

Remove the "no more than one non-threat per three threat" target rule. It's an easy change, and it's more realistic.

The rule is in place (technically) only for Sanction matches. MD's have much more leeway for club matches. Personally I find the rationale to be sound.

The Madonna/Monkey thing I remember it from the SNL spoof. If it happened in real life I missed the footage. Thankfully.

[dirtypool40]

make it so you can compete with factory ammo (.40, 10 and .357 no longer forced to be minor by the rules).

Mayo, what he was getting at was make CDP / ESP one division and add major/ minor (which it already is), only remove 8 round 1911 .45 acp rules for CDP.

SSP needs major minor too, you have it in CDP / ESP, so why are all "crunch tickers" lumped into minor? .40 S&W is the most popular LEO duty gun (and maybe CWP carry gun) out there. Why does the "real tactical" sport discourage them so? I mean come on, does anyone make a .40 duty load that does not make 165? (I think Winny silvertips and Federal PD were the only ones close and they made it out of my gun.)

*sound of crickets*

I thought so. So why does IDPA act like .40 "major" does not exist? Doe sthe acp 1911 need that much protection? I kinda doubt it.

[Duane Thomas]

make it so you can compete with factory ammo (.40, 10 and .357 no longer forced to be minor by the rules).

.40/10/.357 aren't forced to be Minor by the rules. AAMOF there's no such thing as Major/Minor scoring in IDPA.

Mayo, what he was getting at was make CDP / ESP one division and add major/ minor (which it already is)

No, it's not. There's no such thing as Major/Minor scoring in IDPA.

SSP needs major minor too, you have it in CDP / ESP

No, you don't. There's no such thing as Major/Minor scoring in IDPA. What we do have is a different power floor in CDP compared to SSP/ESP/SSR to be competing in the sport at all. Major/Minor means you get differing scores on target with less than center hits, depending on the pf of your load. In IDPA every bullet hole counts the same regardless of pf.

[NEPAKevin]

There's no such thing as Major/Minor scoring in IDPA.

X3

I have often heard small talk made at IDPA matches with referances to major/minor, Virginia count, hits in the A-zone, ROs, etc. and wonder if the real reason why McDonalds came out with the McDLT was so when these guys come in and order a Whopper, they just give them the McDLT and don't have to go through trying to explain that MickeyD's isn't BK.

Kevin

[dirtypool40]

well, here we go again, I still say if we shoot the same gun a 1911 for instance, and you only have to make 125 while I have to make 165, even if you don't call it major, there is major / minor.

just another idea not really thought out by the cartel.

[tightloop]

[Duane Thomas]

I still say if we shoot the same gun a 1911 for instance, and you only have to make 125 while I have to make 165, even if you don't call it major, there is major / minor.

And I'll have to say there's a big difference between power floor and power factor.

[smokshwn]

Yep there is a difference, 4 letters.

[Dawg5]

I haven't shot IDPA yet, mainly because I'm stuck in Iraq, but from what I can see, there are a lot of issues that need fixing with in IDPA. So if IDPA isn't willing to change to meet the needs of the shooters, why don't the shooters develop their own league/discipline to meet their needs. Say make a United States Tactical Pistol Association, assuming that doesn't already exist, or whatever. Where a group of individuals makes the rules and goes on from there. Basically what I'm saying is that if the rules and regulations aren't to the liking of a vast majority of the shooters in IDPA land, make up a new one and go from there. You have the GSSF, CSA, and tons of other leagues that sprung up out of the need for a shooting competition designed around those shooters' need for their own discipline. Let IDPA stand where it is, but create a new one for those individuals that wish to shoot in a tactical manner. I.e. here's the stage, pull out your carry gun, who cares how many rounds are in the magazine, if it has a bull barrel, what caliber it is, and just shoot using the equipment you want and the style of shooting you want. Use cover/concealment as you see fit and... I think you get the point by now. Just my $0.02

[Ted Murphy]

They have something close to that in the polite society and the NTI. Pretty cool stuff.

Ted

[rmills]

well, here we go again, I still say if we shoot the same gun a 1911 for instance, and you only have to make 125 while I have to make 165, even if you don't call it major, there is major / minor. 

just another idea not really thought out by the cartel.

You only have to reach the 165PF floor if you choose to particpate in CDP division. You would not be competing against another 1911 shooting in ESP division utilizing the 125PF floor. The two divisions are completely separate, period. There is no "match winner" in IDPA, only division winners.

=========================================

"Honestly, why do people say "well, then we'd be like IPSC and we don't want that?". IDPA is a whole lot more like IPSC than it is to any other shooting sport. Why is that bad?"

=========================================

Because IPSC and USPSA are different shooting sports with a completely different set of rules even though both IPSC and USPSA appear to mimic IDPA.

=========================================

"I too noticed that in both IDPA and CAS the participants pretend that other things (tactics, costumes etc) are more important the scores or winning. I suggest that you remove all methods of scoring and call the SOs TCs. (Tactics Counselors) And then it becomes a controlled training session and all the aforementioned problems go away. But I guess we would have to come up with something to combat trainsmanship. And Failure to Train Right."

==========================================

In IDPA there is no pretending. Hitting the targets with accurate and fast shots is the goal. While IPSC and USPSA provide a pretend scenario where one can use custom race guns to emulate battles with virtually unlimited targets that pose no threat as well as allowing virtually unlimited ammo, IPDA gives the competitors a place to evaluate their skills using real world practical pistols along with the requirements of using tactics similiar to what one may use have to use in a real world confrontation such as use of cover.

And no, IPDA is not training. Experts such as Ken Hackathorn provide real world training. IDPA gives us a chance to practice what we have learned.

What would I do to improve IDPA? Provide a better means of educating the masses as to what IPDA really is.

[Jake Di Vita]

Oh please. I have been nice and respectful up till now, but I can't let this slide.

"though both IPSC and USPSA appear to mimic IDPA"

Do you honestly believe that? Yup you got it alright. USPSA is a copy of IDPA. When USPSA started, they looked to IDPA to get the basics of the sport. Excuse me while I vomit.

In IDPA there is no pretending??? Then why, when a good IDPA shooter goes to USPSA, does he normally do crap when compared to other shooters. Take Production division for example. Very little difference to IDPA.....yet their scores all take a plunge when IDPA shooters shoot it.

"IPDA gives the competitors a place to evaluate their skills using real world practical pistols along with the requirements of using tactics similiar to what one may use have to use in a real world confrontation such as use of cover"

That is also one of the biggest bunches of crap I've ever heard. You go ahead and use the tactics you learned in IDPA in the real world....I just hope you got some life insurance.

"While IPSC and USPSA provide a pretend scenario where one can use custom race guns to emulate battles with virtually unlimited targets that pose no threat as well as allowing virtually unlimited ammo"

Unlimited targets that pose no threat and unlimited ammo?

Yeah I guess I forgot that those IDPA targets are shooting back at you and provide a real threat. How about Production and Limited 10. 10 rounds of ammo max in each mag. Yeah, there are usually more targets....so what. Next are you going to try and tell me most real life encounters are 18 rounds with 9 different threats????

I'm sorry Mr. Mills, but you shockingly short sighted in your arguments. This "IDPA is the best and USPSA is for hosers only" crap needs to go, because I and I'm sure many others are quite sick of it.

If you don't think USPSA shooters are as good or better than IDPA shooters with stock guns, let me know when and where the next major match you are attending it and I will be sure to make it to compete against you.