What would YOU do to improve IDPA?

[Duane Thomas]

Why else would anyone really use a GLOCK 34 in IDPA.

Because it's their everyday carry gun?

[Duane Thomas]

The time punishment for hits outside of the "0" area should be increased for Minor. Have not done any study, but 1.0 and 2.0 sec. for Minor might work.

There's no such thing as Major/Minor scoring in IDPA.

[Nik Habicht]

I don't shoot IDPA, so take this for what it's worth.

If you take these suggestions to heart, i.e. codify the rules, delete the FTDR, allow sensible tactics, embrace the freestyle concept, etc etc etc... what's left? What ultimately distinguishes IDPA other than all these ridiculous rules? Are differently-shaped scoring zones, time/seconds down scoring system, 18rd limit/2-mags-on-belt limit, and rules against race gear really enough to justify IDPA's existence?

My own decision not to play in this particular sandbox is based upon personally concluding that retained reloads, SO discretion in penalties, tactical dogma and "my way or the highway" COF's, etc etc etc, are not sand in the works, not flaws in an otherwise viable system. They are, in fact, essential to the character of the sport, the spot welds in its armor so to speak. Take them away, and you lay bare the ultimate triviality of the IDPA/IPSC schism.

Don't get me wrong, I would like nothing more than for someone to convince me that I am mistaken, so I can go out and buy a legal holster and pouches, and have a whole extra set of matches to go to But from where I sit (at an admittedly safe distance) it looks like the whole point of the game is to be silly, dogmatic, and rigid.

I think that requiring the use of cover; shooting while moving to cover -- often while backing up; the increased emphasis on accuracy; shooting mostly shorter stages, often with specific engagement order; from concealment with lightly modified guns would continue to distinguish the sport from IPSC......

I started in IDPA, and while I don't have much opportunity to shoot it anymore, it's definitely a different game. I see the differences as being akin to the differences between a Steel Challenge stage and shooting the Bianchi Plates.......

I don't think that adopting some of these suggestions turns IDPA into USPSA; adopting all of them might be a different story.....

[dirtypool40]

I will try not to slip into one of my rants...

Tacti-Krishna....Krishna, Krishna.......Tacti-Krishna.......

Duane I have to disagree, there IS major / minor in IDPA; it's called CDP / ESP. Only they don't make sense (like so much else). I have always said IDPA needed one more (or one less) division. Either they need a "SSP major" or need to drop "CDP minor" (ESP). Yes, "Cartel", I know you didn't think of it and you're embarrassed, but like so much else, admitting you have a problem or made a mistake is the first step in fixing it. (No, Duane I am not calling you Cartel.)

Divisions should make sense and not change at the whim....well you know. How about a division for wheel gunners; 6 rounds max, fits in the box, 50 ounce max, major (.357 min and 165) / minor (.38 and 125). No comp, not dot.

For autos two divisions DA & SA. Both 50 ounces max, both fit in the box, Major (.40 and 165) / minor (9mm and 125). No comp no dot.

Holsters for all divisions safe, worn behind point of hip, OBJECTIVELY described as "carry type". Mag limit if you really think your course design is that weak. Don't randomly exclude features like bull barrels or green grips or anything else that has no bearing on gun performance.

Oh my God. Don't confuse us, I mean what will we do without the latest fax pages from the equipment decoder council???

moving on...

As far as the 1 point = .5 second, that's also not well thought out. For the super close stuff IDPA shoots it should be more like .25 second per point, yes even for the middle of the road guys. Other wise you teach folks to shoot, then score, then decide to move.

As far as moving and or kneeling. I still don't understand why IDPA is so phobic of "freestyle" or figuring things out. I am insulted by a local mall ninja dicatating the stage proceedure to me. If I am capable of shooting while moving, let me. But if a newbie with full charge ammo in a Glock 27 isn't for God's sake don't force them. Again, think it through a little. Different skill levels will solve problems differently.

IDPA teaches so many "training scars" it's hard to know where to start, but the kneeling is as good a place as any. Teach folks not to see over the sights of the gun or to move fluidly from cover to cover, but to anchor themselves to one spot, so they can't flee, or sprint to cover. Extra-specially if they have an injury. Arbitrary!! Yeah, Let's be Arbitrary!! (Oooh, does that mean tactical in French?).

This is just one example spotlighting the base flaw in IDPA; trying to legislate actions with draconian rules rather than better course design.

Since the original question was how to improve I will try to keep it in the constructive mode. Major and Simple: Leave the "Operator Fantasies" in your basement & drop the attitudes. shoot for fun, welcome shooters, if they are better than you, learn from them, if you are better than them help them along without preaching.

Just because it's my first match does not make me easy plucking to be brain washed into the Tacti-Krishnas. And just because I shot the stage faster than you, in a way you hadn't thought of, does not make me anything, except a better shooter than you. Don't go talk with your friends about where to award a penalty later. Just deal with it, try to smile and say "nice run", it's ok, you're still a tough guy.

[BigDave]

Without getting into too much detail, I would like to see a list of pistols and holsters you can't use, instead of one you can. I think that it is very clear that the IDPA's intent is to use "street/concealment" gear. As an example I might say something like:

Holsters allowable for use in IDPA competition are those typically found in the manufacturers duty or concealment catalogs. Holsters used in IDPA competition must be safe, completely cover the trigger guard and completely cover no less than 3" of slide or barrel forward of the front edge of the barrel hood or cylinder.

The following holsters are excluded from use in IDPA competition: Safariland: 002, 003, 007, 009, 010, 011, 012; Bianchi: Hemisphere; Ghost; Rescomp CR Speed, CR Secure; (Insert name of typical race holster).

Shoulder holsters of all types are also excluded from IDPA for safety reasons.

Physical alteration of any holster from its factory/manufacturer delivered condition, other than normal wear and tear and adjustment of factory installed/provided options, is forbidden.

Of course my holster 3" suggestion doens't work well for compacts autos and revos, but it is the idea I'm trying to convey. Not only exclude the specific "race" holser known models and then exclude the characteristics of a race holseter as well. I think it is better to state, much like an all-peril insurance policy, that we allow everything that isn't stated as excluded.

My $0.02

[kdj]

If I were trying to improve IDPA, I'd try to make it sound more *fun* to someone who knows nothing about it.

Let me elaborate: I don't shoot IDPA. I've never shot IDPA. I was going to shoot IDPA since I enjoy shooting and think almost all shooting games are fun. But then, speaking to people around the range, reading posts on this and other forums and reading IDPA "authorities" giving their opionion on IPSC (which happens to be a gun-game that I consider almost ideal), I decided that it just didn't sound to be something I'd want to do.

I like shooting. I hate arbitrarily being forced to do something the way someone else thinks it should be done. I know myself and my skills and am pretty good at optimizing *for me and my limitations*.

The rigid and arbitrary nature of the practice of shooting IDPA, as reported by everyone I talked to, both the critics and the fans, really put me off.

Now I don't know if this is a fair impression or not, but it is the one I got. So, to improve IDPA to the point where I might discover it's the greatest gun game on the planet, they'd need to present a different image in the "media" accessable to new shooters.

Of course, if they don't want people like me shooting IDPA then this would not be an improvement

Kevin

[rmills]

Why don't you guys just rename it USPSA Jr. ?

Kneepads - Sorry, I don't like the idea of being at a match with people that look like a bunch of roofers.

Choreography - I agree to some extent. It's all about COF design. You get what the MD wants/likes to do 90% of the time. I like to see people sort it out and shoot it different ways. Sometimes I like to force them to perform a reload to break up the rhythm and make them think. It's all good IMO.

Forced kneeling at low cover is a stability rule and should stay IMO. Same reason why kneeling should be at the end of a COF so you don't put the slower moving folks at a greater disadvantage. Same reason there's a 10yd movement limit.

Speed reloads. Another dead horse topic. How much ammo do you carry? How much are you willing to leave behind? blah blah blah. Or take it away and bump the min round count and see how precious each bullet becomes.

If you have a sport that requires use of cover there's always going to be tough calls to make. Deal with it.

Move 10mm back to CDP for the sole reason that it will shut my good friend John Forsyth up. For a little while anyway.

Great Point Mayonaise!

[rmills]

[BigDave]

Roy,

Please, this thread was started as an open call by Mark as to what we might change so let people speak their mind. If you want to, start a thread like "People who want to change IDPA suck" in the What I Hate forum, okay? All people are doing here are talking. This isn't an official IDPA rule book re-write; it's a verbal catharsis.

I, for one, don't want to see IDPA become USPSA, and I don't think anyone here wants that either. However I do, and I think you should also, consider the possibility that there might be some overlap between the two organizations. We both play games with guns, holsters, paper and moving targets that have practical origins.

Dave

[Tom Freeman]

What their missing is that IDPA is not intended to be an overly complex, super technical, arbitration riddled sport.

This years USPSA nationals was not riddled with arbitrations. Not even a single one if I remember correctly.

I shoot IDPA. I run a IDPA Club in Colorado. I was the stats geek for the 2004 Colorado State Match.

The rulebook needs a re-write. All the articles in the Tac-Journal that are taken as rules should be incorporated. All emails from Dru that are taken as rules should be incorporated.

The holster list could be made into something like, Must cover trigger guard and everything from the barrel hood and cylinder down, Yak slides exempted. Make the holsters out of any material. No shoulder holsters.

The 40, 10 and 45 GAP should be in CDP.

Hits on non threats should be double down what they are now.

Knee and elbow pads should be allowed. We may look like a bunch or roofers, but we wont be limping too bad at the end of the day or picking rocks out of our knees and elbows. You tell the GIs in the desert their knee pads make them look like roofers.

I also run a IPSC Club and 3-Gun club in Colorado and was a Section Coordinator for two years.

IPSC isnt perfect and either is IDPA. Both can be made better. Discussing what we can do to achieve that doesent always have be taken as bashing.

Please notice none of the above compares IPSC to IDPA, nor did it bash either.

[Dan Burwell]

First thing they need to do is make a decision to ditch the FTDR. Then that will allow them to make up real rules for the conduct of the shooters.

They mention in the LGB they want stability of rules, but they put in the FTDR which gets interpreted different everywhere you go, sometimes even in the same match.

If they want stability of rules they will have to actually write the rules down on paper and hand them out. Until then we will never have rule stability.

By doing this I think it would eliminate a lot of the people that are bashing IDPA because they got burned by something that isn't against the rules.

Dan

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I just waded through this entire morass...my question is the same as several others; WHERE THE HELL IS THE KNEEPAD RULE?

I just read the rule book five more times (readings 55-60) and cannot find it anywhere!

Please state the page and pargraph number.

Thank you.

It is no longer in the book. It was in the red book but not the green one. (Good thing because I always wear knee pads).

Regards,

[BigDave]

As far as the guns thing goes, I'm thinking along the same lines as I was going with holsters.

The firearm with magazine must fit in the box and following modifications are excluded:

1) changing caliber from factory standard

2) changing non-bull barrels to bull barrels

3) addition of weight to frame

4) electronic and optical sights

5) grips that encompass the hand or thumb rests

6) barrel porting or compensators

7) double-action tigger pull weights less than 3.5 lbs

8) single-action trigger pull weights less than 2.0 lbs

9) any unloaded gun may not weight less than x.xx oz less than or x.xx oz. more

than the factory published weight

10) changing sights to that other than a notch and post type

11) pinning or disabling grip safeties or Safe-Actions

SSP - double action first pull or Safe-Action, any caliber greater than 9x19mm, 10 rounds loaded in magazine max - 120 PF

ESP - single action pistols in 9x19, 38 Super, 9x23, 38 Supercomp, 38 TJ, 40 S&W and 41 AE. 9 rounds loaded in magazine max - 120 PF

CDP - single action or Safe Action pistols in 9x19, 38 Super, 9x23, 38 Supercomp, 38 TJ, 40 S&W, 10mm Auto, 41 AE, 45 GAP and 45 ACP, 8 rounds loaded in magazine max. - 165 PF

SSR - double action revolvers, 38 Special or larger, 6 rounds loaded max - 120 PF

Again, my $0.02

[Joe D]

Duane, of course there is not a Major PF for ESP and SSP. Why do you think most shoot a 128-130 PF?

[BigDave]

I think what DT is pointing out is that there is no consideration given for power factor in terms of scoring.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

With the majority of the changes that are proposed the new look of IDPA could be seen HERE

Regards,

[Liota]

You know, Round Gun Shooter is right. After you guys make all of these changes, it will be another rendition of USPSA/IPSC.

Having sat through the SO class, (Many thanks to Johnny Van Etta for coming to San Angleo to teach it) I think the main thing that keeps me from shooting IDPA is being told how to shoot a stage. I tend to think "gaming" equals the ability to think on one's feet under pressure, which is a practical skill. If IDPA wishes to be practical and tactical, there is a lot to be said for the ability to perform under pressure and solve problems on your own.

Many of the changes suggested above would make IDPA a more desirable sport for me to include, elimination of FTDR, elimination of USPSA bashing in the rulebook, and more objective scoring.

Liota

[Singlestack]

I have never shot an IDPA match.

Read this thread and you will know why.

[BigDave]

So what if IDPA does resemble IPSC? There's nothing wrong with that, IMO. After all, IDPA evolved out of IPSC, right? IDPA wasn't really a new idea, was it? IDPA should resemble IPSC, but not be the same.

Any gun legal in IDPA is also legal in USPSA/IPSC. Any holster legal in IDPA is also legal in USPSA/IPSC. The overall shape of the IDPA target is the same as USPSA (scoring areas differ, of course). Walks like a duck. Talks like...

What distinguishes IDPA, among other things is, the use of cover, dress (concealment), max. round count, reload technique and engagement order.

I think what the difficult switch for most USPSA/IPSC shooters is how field courses are administered. If you were to step back and take a look, the way IDPA really runs field courses is as (in USPSA/IPSC language) Virginia Count with make up shots allowed. I think that's cool. But, what's weird at times is that COF's are spelled out so clearly, but the penalties/rules are administered so subjectively. You're strict on one hand, but all over the place on the other. Cleaning that up just a bit I think really would make IDPA more attractive to the USPSA crowd (not that that is or should be the point, but lack of consistency and clarity is detrimental to all). And I, for one, think that more shooting is definately a good thing.

[Bill Nesbitt]

Mark, You didn't specify in your original question whether we were supposed to answer as if we were actually able to change rules or not.

A new rule book has been rumored. I think when we see it, that it will contain mostly the same rules we now have but hopefully be more clear.

IDPA is a shooting sport that is similar, but different, from the other shooting sports that use a handgun. It has it's own rules. You wouldn't use football or hockey rules at a basketball game would you?? oops! Bad analogy after recent basketball happenings.

We can each as individuals improve IDPA in our own area. I am a Safety Officer Instructor. I teach my students to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt. Absolutely no Range Nazi's. I also teach them to present the problem and let the shooter solve it. New clubs often ask me for good stages. I scour the internet and other places for "good" stages that follow the rule book. I see no reason why every stage, no matter where it is, cannot follow the rule book to the letter.

As shooters you should demand and get good stages and good SO's. I am starting to speak with my entertainment dollars and no longer attend clubs that don't follow the rules. Last year we went to 6 State or Regional IDPA matches. We won't be returning to some of them because they didn't follow the rule book.

As MD's or SO's you should also follow the rules. If there is a rule that you have a problem with then you should design it out of your stages. For instance the knee rule for low cover. Just have all shots be fired from standing. It's not rocket science.

Clubs are competing for their customers entertainment dollars. If you don't give them the bang for their buck that they want then don't be surprised if they go elsewhere.

All areas have their own personality. When I travel to different clubs for any of the shooting sports I see a difference in the way stages are presented. I often hear about run and gun stages where accuracy is not needed. But if you go to one of my local USPSA clubs you better be able to shoot at distance. I think some people have had a bad experience at one or two clubs and written a sport off because of the local club.

We can each change IDPA for the better. Remember that saying about lighting a single candle in the darkness?

Bill Nesbitt

[Steve Moneypenny]

Excellent post Bill!!!

[Mark Perez]

"Please, this thread was started as an open call by Mark as to what we might change so let people speak their mind." ...BigDave

Big Dave is exactly right - please allow posters to express their opinion without ridicule - we're all grow-ups here.

"Mark, You didn't specify in your original question whether we were supposed to answer as if we were actually able to change rules or not."..Bill Nesbitt

We both know what the chances are that would happen , but by reviewing the ideas presented - I can get a better feel on how to attract USPSA (only) shooters over to the other side. At the same time giving IDPA (only) shooters a chance to develop a strategy to attack a stage in the spirit of freestyle.

Lots of good posts so-far , thought provoking stuff.

I hope this thread will continue on a positive path and not deteriorate like the previous threads that were locked.

I'm going to monitor in lurk mode now .

Until that day,

Mark

[MBaneACP]

Mark;

A fair and honest question, with some EXCELLENT responses! I can only wish that the Powers-That-Be would read and consider them.

I think that my views are pretty well known on a lot of what you might think of as the *micro* IDPA issues. Those views are based on research, on spending time with people who do this sort of stuff for a living--police, military and civilian.--and my own experiences in the area of high-risk decision-making. They are not arbitrary.

So let me address the *macro* issues:

I would ask that IDPA (or any sport, for that matter) be HONEST and REAL.

HONEST means that IDPA should:

• Accept that it is a *sport*--not training, not a tactical proving ground.

• Acknowledge that while IDPA is based on real-world input, the whole concept of "tactical" is a moving target, subject not only to interpretation by different perfectly legitimate experts but to being "overtaken" by real-world events.

• Acceptance of the above point implies that the world is, indeed, freestyle; the greatest martial arts instructors have always learned as much, or more, from their students as their students did from them. Competition at its heart is a learning experience.

• Honesty REQUIRES us to examine the consequences of our actions. I believe the tactical reload is NOT just another rule to be endured (apologies to Duane T.), but rather a technique that will HONEST TO GOD GET YOU KILLED IN THE REAL WORLD. I can imagine nothing more hypocritical than a sport that launched itself by insisting that it was "real world based" and would not be like those "other guys" and teach you "tactically unsound" things actually INSTITUTIONALIZING a tactic so dangerous that at least one police magazine has gone on record urging its instructor base to avoid it at all costs.

REAL means that IDPA *MUST* acknowledge that there are real-world consequences in what we intentionally or inadvertantly teach.

• I belive that the obsession with "gaming" is doing a criticial disservice to shooters--especially new shooters. I believe that gaming--the ability to quickly analyze a real-world situations, examine the alternatives and arrive at a best (or less worse) case plan of action--is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT SKILL I HAVE LEARNED IN THIS SPORT! I believe this ability has quite literally saved my life more than once. I have taught this, I have written it in my articles and books and I can document case after case where "gaming" is the difference between getting to come home on one's feet or in a bag. IDPA's anti-gaming obsession is rooted in two IDPA founders' intense dislike of USPSA's occasional tolerence of *CHEATERS* under the guise of "gamers." If you walk into a potentially lethal situation and are "surprised"--a word I have heard 1000 times at IDPA matches as the rationale for non-gaming--YOU HAVE ALREADY FAILED! Does it happen in the real world? Of course. But aren't we better off teaching gaming skills than institutionalizing failure?

• REAL also means a willingness to forgo "false macho" trappings appearing under the guise of "tactical reality." For instance, I know if I throw myself on a hard surface, I'm going to pay for it in my knees and elbows. if my life is on the line, however, I'm willing to "give up" my already badly abused knees or other chunks of my body. I--and no sane person I know of--is willing to do the same to "prove" how real world we are in a match. If I don't wear kneepads in a match and I injury myself, what have I proven? That I'm "tactical?" Or that I'm a now injured Walter Mitty? I trashed my lungs by staying too long on a Big Mountain; I made that decision, and I live with the results. Would I have made the same decision if I had been in a high-altitude simulator in downtown Denver? Get real.

• Real means an acceptance of the absolute truth that "the game ain't the thing." As the great Jim Cirillo once said to me at a match, "You know, the targets ain't shooting back!" Being a good IDPA shooter does NOT make you a stealthy ninja gunfighter, because the targets are not shooting back. If you BELIEVE you are a stealthy ninja gunfighter because you are in the upper 1% of IDPA shooters, I believe you are actually MORE likely to end up as somebody's dinner, because your mind is going to be making bets that your body/skillset probably can't cover.

Good lord...that's enough verbose nonsense for one night!

mb

[EricW]

... the tactical reload is NOT just another rule to be endured (apologies to Duane T.), but rather a technique that will HONEST TO GOD GET YOU KILLED IN THE REAL WORLD. I can imagine nothing more hypocritical than a sport that launched itself by insisting that it was "real world based" and would not be like those "other guys" and teach you "tactically unsound" things actually INSTITUTIONALIZING a tactic so dangerous that at least one police magazine has gone on record urging its instructor base to avoid it at all costs.

Bless you for saying that.

[Duane Thomas]

Duane I have to disagree, there IS major / minor in IDPA; it's called CDP / ESP.

Okay, I guess I have to disagree back. The essence of Major/Minor scoring is that different points are awarded for less than center hits, depending on the power factor of the ammo used. And that simply doesn't happen in IDPA; all hits score the same, no matter the ammo's pf (granted it meets the power floor to be used at all, natch). IDPA did this deliberately. Power factor was originally intended as a predictor of incapacitation effect. Today we know that any such correlation is illusory. Doing away with Major/Minor scoring recognized that fact, and really makes more sense than USPSA's Major/Minor scoring system, if you think about it.