What would YOU do to improve IDPA?

[NEPAKevin]

Impliment a procedure for arbitration of complaints and enforce gross improper behavior either by banning shooters who commit unsportsman or like or unsafe behavior and removing sanction of clubs that commit gross improprieties.

Institue a national data base of shooters and their classifications as well as banned individuals.

Greater emphasis on youth shooting by encouraging youth participation awards, prizes, etc. at matches and where possible getting sponsers to help young shooters with equipment and training.

Kevin

[tightloop]

Great Thread...

Good suggestions as well...

[rhino]

I find it interesting to note that the most "compelling" argument against allowing the use of kneepads is that someone doesn't like how they "look."

I agree with many of the changes suggested, but I would add that I would like to see the SO training on a par with USPSA/IPSC RO training under NROI and IROI. I'd also like to see the focus of the SO shifted onto SAFETY rather than the current emphasis on watching for procedural mistakes and minor rules infractions. Someone who is designated "Safety Officer" should be concerned first and foremost with safety. Along those lines, I think the SO course should direct that the SOs attention should be primarily on the gun and where it is pointed, not on the targets or whether or not the shooter is using cover properly or if they did the wrong the kind of reload. If it's necessary to worry over such trivial things (compared to safety), then the clipboard person or another appointee should handle that chore.

[tightloop]

Ever had a donut hole in your knee from kneeling without knee pads????

[blackdragon]

IMHO,

the FTDR should be eliminated, In a real life "tactical encounter" You will know when you FTDR!

Ivan

[tightloop]

Back to my earlier statement echoing Clint Smith...always cheat...

[blackdragon]

He said Cheat ( enter beavis and butthead )

Ivan

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I find it interesting to note that the most "compelling" argument against allowing the use of kneepads is that someone doesn't like how they "look."

I agree with many of the changes suggested, but I would add that I would like to see the SO training on a par with USPSA/IPSC RO training under NROI and IROI. I'd also like to see the focus of the SO shifted onto SAFETY rather than the current emphasis on watching for procedural mistakes and minor rules infractions.

I no longer see the no knee pads in the book. I wear them (admittedly under, not over my pants) and if I were not allowed to wear them I would no longer be able to shoot IDPA.

As far as the SO statement, that is what they are trained to do and in clubs I shoot at that is what they do. The score keeper keeps score and assesses penalties unless it is a firearm related penalty.

With the statements being made for changes, I think the first thing that needs to be done is along the lines of what Rhino suggests:

Create a uniform training module for Safety Officers and Match Directors so all rules and principles of IDPA are enforced in a like manner in all affiliated organizations

[tightloop]

That would be a great start...

[Mayonaise]

I find it interesting to note that the most "compelling" argument against allowing the use of kneepads is that someone doesn't like how they "look."

Sorry, didn't mean to offend any "roofers" who might be reading.

[jhgtyre]

I just don't get how the goofy appearance of knee pads is somehow non-tactical. Many shooters wouldn't have eye and ear protection on when the shit hit the fan either but we wear them. It seems that you need a roofer to patch the holes in your arguement.

-ld

[SmittyFL]

I don't shoot IDPA, I just started messing around at a local "defensive pistol" match which is pretty similar. I would like to and plan on shooting IDPA sometime in the near future. (to much damn shooting down here to find time).

I'm a die hard IPSC'er, that will always be my first love, but if I can find more time to pull the trigger, I don't care what it is, we're just there to have fun. Bottom line is it is different game with different rules......but it's still a game. If you have a score, a time, and a winner, it's a game. A buddy of mine had a good point, IDPA is a lot like Cowboy shooting. The guys play dress up with their photographer vests and play cops and robbers hiding behind cardboard or plastic walls. There is nothing wrong with that, if they are having fun, but that's basically what it is.

In my limited experience the main problem/issue I see is the freestyle aspect. Not to make it more like IPSC in the least but if there ever is a place for freestyle, it seems to me like it should be in IDPA. "Here is the situation you are confronted with, now get out of it to the best of your ability". While using all the applicable rules, (cover, reload, etc.) That makes much more sense to me, than dictating where and when you have to shoot stuff. I still plan to go shoot it and I guarantee I'll have a good time.......because I'm out shooting......a game.

[ima45dv8]

A buddy of mine had a good point, IDPA is a lot like Cowboy shooting. The guys play dress up with their photographer vests and play cops and robbers hiding behind cardboard or plastic walls. There is nothing wrong with that, if they are having fun, but that's basically what it is.

At one of the first IDPA matches I attended, a friend of advanced age and wisdom offered a softly-spoken word of caution. He said, "IDPA is a lot like Cowboy shooting. It's considered bad form if you act like you care about winning."

I admit it probably isn't true at all clubs. In fact, I hope it isn't. But being identified as one of those IPSC shooters, and acting like you want to win, will sometimes get you a less-than-friendly welcome in my limited experience.

What would I do to improve IDPA?

-- As already stated too many times to count, I would overhaul the rulebook to remove the contradictions/ambiguities, particularly with respect to the FTDR penalty and it's application. There's simply too much potential for abuse. **And before anyone thinks I'm saying SOs in IDPA have a choke-hold on abusing a potential penalty, I'm not. I've seen a few IPSC ROs who could use a refresher in the philosophy of "assisting the shooter to have a safe and enjoyable match." I saw a couple at this year's nationals, in fact (and yes I did have a talk with their CRO, who agreed a little "charm school" might be in order).

-- I would like to see IDPA standardize SO training, which also depends greatly on reorganizing the rulebook. In its current form it's a bag of worms and the particulars of match rules are scattered throughout the book in no logical progression. I've taken the class twice from two different instructors. With that as a guide, it's a wonder they were able to present the information as well as they did, and certainly their experience was a major factor in their success. Pity the poor newly-accredited SO who a week or two later has to look something up.

-- As was suggested on another forum, fire Dru. That seems extreme, so maybe the best compromise would be to take away her email and telephone access. This might serve to stop the self-contradictory declarations handed out with no thought of what was said on the same subject 3 weeks ago.

-- I would like to see all sides of the issue accept the reality that IDPA shooters are not Members, but Clients. That would mean IDPA HQ taking some active role in providing an improved product to their Clients (this thread and several others are pretty strong indications of that need). **By "improved product" I'm not saying "IPSC-Lite"; I'm saying, "predictable, consistent IDPA".

It would also remind the Clients that they have limited options. As in all things where your money leaves your pocket and enters someone else's in exchange for sub-standard goods and services, you can vote by interrupting that flow of money.

You don't like the product? Complain. They ain't listening? Go somewhere where the service provider actually cares enough to make the effort. You don't want to go somewhere else? OK. Learn to adapt to the situation as it exists because you've made your own conscious decision to continue doing business with that provider and that product. You can stay and run the risk that they will see no need to change because revenues support their current strategy, or you can leave. If enough unsatisfied Clients do that, the ol' checkbook may force a reevalution of priorities by the service provider.

Your vote is your money. Spend it wisely.

...Mark

[Mayonaise]

Don't like IDPA? Well, there's also The Polite Society. One of the great things about America is the freedom to make choices.

[fullautodave]

But is IDPA different for the sake of being different, or different to be better?

I suspect...different just to be different.  IDPA was spun off the real gun game by malcontents unable to complete on a level playing field, and thus...the FTDR was born!

I can not disagree with to much on this thread but I believe this is just wrong. BW was very competitive, and very, very supportive of USPSA. He got screwed and then got mad and then set out, in my opinion, to make IDPA to be different more than anything else from USPSA.

[Flexmoney]

Hi folks. Just another moderator reminder to try to stay on topic. We've all seen more than enough threads and post on "what's wrong".

THIS thread is for suggestions on improvement.

Lets keep the debate out of it as much as possible please.

[Dead Buff]

A general suggestion for improvement: Consistency

and of course to mature. IDPA is not threatened by other games, it is threatening it own existence.

[Sac Law Man]

7 pages and 91 posts on improving IDPA. I think someone (Mark Perez) should print the posts that offer suggestions and mail them to Bill Wilson and the B.O.D..

Doesnt' make much sense to talk about improving IDPA and not let the person(s) responsible for changes know about them..

[Dead Buff]

7 pages and 91 posts on improving IDPA. I think someone (Mark Perez) should print the posts that offer suggestions and mail them to Bill Wilson and the B.O.D..

Doesnt' make much sense to talk about improving IDPA and not let the person(s) responsible for changes know about them..

Thats prob one of the best comments to date....

[Mark Perez]

7 pages and 91 posts on improving IDPA. I think someone (Mark Perez) should print the posts that offer suggestions and mail them to Bill Wilson and the B.O.D..

Doesnt' make much sense to talk about improving IDPA and not let the person(s) responsible for changes know about them..

Good idea - I used the "email this topic function" and sent it over to info@idpa.com

Maybe if they got a couple more ....?

All ,

thanks for some very good suggestions , whether IDPA takes it to heart or not remains to be seen - but it's a start.

Until that day,

Mark

[smokshwn]

thanx Mark

[Sac Law Man]

Sounds good Mark... who knows maybe they will take into consideration a few of the suggestions..

John

[spd522]

If you insist on making a shooter have a knee on the ground, knee pads should be allowed -even with shorts.

Allow more steel in COF. Steel is a reactive target, as are threat targets in real life.

Revise the classifier. It is easy to shoot the classifier at a higher level than you are capable of competing at in a real match. Most COF in matches are field courses. Less emphasis on shooting while advancing as this is an unrealistic situation. It is defensive pistol, not offensive pistol.

Boost COF round count from 18 to 24 rounds. Keep repeating -This is a game and most want to shoot ALOT. Get rid of stages with only 6 rounds in them unless several strings are involved. And let everyone carry an extra mag or speedloader if they need to. THIS IS A SHOOTING GAME SO LET US SHOOT!

Less COF specifying type of reload or when. Let the shooter determine where to reload and what method works best. That is exactly how it will be in real life.

Let folks wear what they want to wear. If you are going to allow some of the obviously gamer vests worn by some of the "shooting club teams" ,get off the backs of others with certain footwear or baggy cargo pants.

Got to be some standardization of training and proficiency level for SOs. Just because someone wants to be an SO and attend training doesn't mean they can do it right. Most are great but many have no clue to what the rules are so they just wing it. I've even seen the SOs argue between themselves over the rules and course description for a stage. Doesn't make a shooter very confident in those running the match.

Actual physical line or barriers to do away with the inconsistant SO interpretation of use of cover. Yes, a foot fault to make sure shooters stay behind cover is better than the being at the mercy of an SO who is not viewing the targets the same way the shooter is.

CDP- any caliber over .40 making the required power factor. Retain 8 rd max loaded mag capacity in all calibers in CDP.

Revolvers- Make it legal if you want to have a revolver modified for moon clips. Not everyone wants to carry a huge 625 on their belt.

Having to stow an empty mag because you still have one round in the pipe needs to go. All this does is cause folks to put an extra round downrange to get to slidelock. If the mag is empty, it is of no use. Dump it! If there are still rounds left in it, there is already a rule regarding that.

FTDR- F*****g Totally Dumb Rule. We aren't a bunch of 2nd graders so quit treating us like one. Reminds me of when Mom says, "Because I said so".

Get rid of the holster list. Make it simple.

1) Must cover trigger and trigger guard.

2) Must retain handgun while moving/running.

3) Cannot be cut lower than the ejection port(pistol) or top strap (revolver)

4) Must not hang lower than designated distance from belt.

5) Must not extend outward from belt per designated distance.

Get a rule book that works and get rid of the anti USPSA garbage. Very unprofessional and juvenile sounding. Actually borders on jealousy.

Plus calling HQ for an inaccurate, inconsistant, and generally unknowledgable answer doesn't cut it. Good luck getting an email response within a week if at all.

Again- Get a rule book that works.

BOD needs to be elected by members for fresh and unbiased input. As an appointed position, there will never be growth in the organization. The members are what make IDPA a success. Keep them from being involved and you will drive them away.

It makes no sense that once you have neutralized targets, you CANNOT do a reload in front of them while moving to the next position. They are Neutralized!!! They are no longer a threat so why the inconsistant rule? As long as the reload is done while not exposed to targets that have not yet been engaged, this should be allowed.

RE: The Nationals:

If you provide lunches, make it worth while. Not the crappy prepackaged sandwich and chips. Maybe those furnishing kegs of beer for the hospitality room can skip providing for the drunks and instead chip in for decent meals on match days that everyone can enjoy.

Match hotel needs to be in a safe, decent and convenient location with enough parking for any events being held there. This has not been the case since the match moved to Little Rock. It was not a problem when the match was held elsewhere in the past.

[kraut]

What I would change:

* Strictly surprise stages, just a minimum briefing, then go ahead. If we want "to shoot": why not shoot same stage 2 or 3 times to learn from our faults from first time shooting that scenario. Scoring just the first try, or at least scored significantly higher. O.c. SO´s knowing the stage b4 are NOT on the score.

* Limit spare ammo to 1 clip. Would You really leave ammo behind You?

* Shooting a non threatening target or missing a target in real live would cause big trouble, so: ZERO on this stage. Trust me: it´s funny.

* That would be easier and more realistic with reasonable par time on house clearings, so You have time to take cover.

* Strictly concealed gear. Whole day, o.c. Sure, You can carry concealed a G34 or 4" M629 in Alaskan winter, concealed under 2 sweaters and warm coat, zipped in front (otherwise freezing Your butt). Let´s do so in competition - in Alaskan winter up there! But at a lovely 90 degree/90 percent day? Are You really wearing these silly looking photographer´s vests in Your real life? ROTFL.

* Reactive targets! Saw some nice samples, affordable construction, some needed a hit in center of body, others in the head simulating BG with body armour.

* No standard exercises, no stupid games like picking up a card and then shooting red - blue - green or vice versa or what else. And I do not understand the sense of an el presidente, especially at 100 yards using pistol. They told me it´s in the book, really? Such BS is not worth to show up at a match after driving hundreds of miles.

* One gun - one division. IMO it´s just cheating if, after becoming Expert with SSP changing to ESP with same gun and starting MM again, may be after cheating in qualifier shoot.

* Strictly dressed targets. Not because it looks more Macho like. Not for psycho training (Computer game might be better for that). But because You will not see the whole in the paper. You just have to know where Your shot went.

[rmills]

If you insist on making a shooter have a knee on the ground, knee pads should be allowed -even with shorts.

Allow more steel in COF. Steel is a reactive target, as are threat targets in real life.

Revise the classifier. It is easy to shoot the classifier at a higher level than you are capable of competing at in a real match. Most COF in matches are field courses. Less emphasis on shooting while advancing as this is an unrealistic situation. It is defensive pistol, not offensive pistol.

Boost COF round count from 18 to 24 rounds. Keep repeating -This is a game and most want to shoot ALOT. Get rid of stages with only 6 rounds in them unless several strings are involved. And let everyone carry an extra mag or speedloader if they need to. THIS IS A SHOOTING GAME SO LET US SHOOT!

Less COF specifying type of reload or when. Let the shooter determine where to reload and what method works best. That is exactly how it will be in real life.

Let folks wear what they want to wear. If you are going to allow some of the obviously gamer vests worn by some of the "shooting club teams" ,get off the backs of others with certain footwear or baggy cargo pants.

Got to be some standardization of training and proficiency level for SOs. Just because someone wants to be an SO and attend training doesn't mean they can do it right. Most are great but many have no clue to what the rules are so they just wing it. I've even seen the SOs argue between themselves over the rules and course description for a stage. Doesn't make a shooter very confident in those running the match.

Actual physical line or barriers to do away with the inconsistant SO interpretation of use of cover. Yes, a foot fault to make sure shooters stay behind cover is better than the being at the mercy of an SO who is not viewing the targets the same way the shooter is.

CDP- any caliber over .40 making the required power factor. Retain 8 rd max loaded mag capacity in all calibers in CDP.

Revolvers- Make it legal if you want to have a revolver modified for moon clips. Not everyone wants to carry a huge 625 on their belt.

Having to stow an empty mag because you still have one round in the pipe needs to go. All this does is cause folks to put an extra round downrange to get to slidelock. If the mag is empty, it is of no use. Dump it! If there are still rounds left in it, there is already a rule regarding that.

FTDR- F*****g Totally Dumb Rule. We aren't a bunch of 2nd graders so quit treating us like one. Reminds me of when Mom says, "Because I said so".

Get rid of the holster list. Make it simple.

1) Must cover trigger and trigger guard.

2) Must retain handgun while moving/running.

3) Cannot be cut lower than the ejection port(pistol) or top strap (revolver)

4) Must not hang lower than designated distance from belt.

5) Must not extend outward from belt per designated distance.

Get a rule book that works and get rid of the anti USPSA garbage. Very unprofessional and juvenile sounding. Actually borders on jealousy.

Plus calling HQ for an inaccurate, inconsistant, and generally unknowledgable answer doesn't cut it. Good luck getting an email response within a week if at all.

Again- Get a rule book that works.

BOD needs to be elected by members for fresh and unbiased input. As an appointed position, there will never be growth in the organization. The members are what make IDPA a success. Keep them from being involved and you will drive them away.

It makes no sense that once you have neutralized targets, you CANNOT do a reload in front of them while moving to the next position. They are Neutralized!!! They are no longer a threat so why the inconsistant rule? As long as the reload is done while not exposed to targets that have not yet been engaged, this should be allowed.

RE: The Nationals:

If you provide lunches, make it worth while. Not the crappy prepackaged sandwich and chips. Maybe those furnishing kegs of beer for the hospitality room can skip providing for the drunks and instead chip in for decent meals on match days that everyone can enjoy.

Match hotel needs to be in a safe, decent and convenient location with enough parking for any events being held there. This has not been the case since the match moved to Little Rock. It was not a problem when the match was held elsewhere in the past.

As IDPA is based on defensive scenario's even the 18 round limit on COF's is extensive. Typically (help me out Mr. Hackathorn) very few shots are fired in a real life confrontation.

Physical fault lines are unecessary. Our sport is based on using available cover, period.

This set of suggested changes makes IDPA look more like USPSA, which is something we certainly do not want. We shoot IDPA because of it's defensive pistol scenario's, not how many rounds the match consists of. If I want to shoot a lot of rounds and utilize hard fault lines, I'd go to a USPSA match.

Two different sports..................................