What would YOU do to improve IDPA?

[Mark Perez]

I posted this at another forum , figured I would post the same question here .

What ideas or concepts would you recommend?

What burden would you be willing to bear??

No easy out : "I'd update the rule book" answer , give some specifics.

Until that day

Mark

[scandog]

Do you really want to open this can of worms?

[Mark Perez]

To quote Mr. Tightloop ,

"Where's your sense of adventure?"

Seriously , plenty of posts about 'what's wrong' with IDPA - let's see if those same guys can post something constructive for a change .

Until that day

Mark

Edited November 25, 2004 by Mark Perez

[AikiDale]

I would like to see an appreciation of the concept of "freestyle" when it comes to solving the shooting problem. If IDPA is just a game, then playing by arbitrary rules to make the game more interesting is fine. If IDPA seeks to be more realistic then shooters must be allowed more freedom to solve problems. I enjoy the occasional IDPA match, have enjoyed the company of those with whom I have shot them and will enjoy future matches but find myself amused by some of my penalties. Some observations:

Stage 1

I am seated in an automobile to start. Three targets in a line off the right front bumper to be engaged through the passenger window. Four targets, two paper and two steel out the driver side. I asked if I could exit the car on the passenger side and use the engine block for cover after shooting the first three and was told no. I could exit the car if I wished but must use the drivers door. Why are good tactics penalized?

I did my best to use the drivers side door post as cover as I shot the four targets from left to right, in the spirit of slicing the pie. I was penalized for not shooting them properly near to far. Why are good tactics penalized?

Stage 2

On my left is a car to be used for cover after engaging three targets directly in front of me single file. I place two shots in each of the three targets as I move to the car rather than just shooting through. I drop my magazine and reload as I get to the car where there are four more targets to be engaged. Another penalty. I let a magazine hit the ground with a round in it. Why are good tactics penalized?

Stage 3

In this stage the targets are moved between shooters. You know which of two rooms will have how many targets but they may have moved between shooters and there may be no shoot targets in the way. The last room has a target which requires two shots to the body and one to the head.

Because of the position of the no shoot, I put three shots in the head. Penalty for not shooting to the body. Why are good tactics penalized?

Tactical sequence, tactical priority, tactical reloads and reloads with retention are not goals in themselves. They are tools which may or may not be appropriate to the mission. To require a a stage be shot the way the stage designer imagined it may support the stage designers ego, or, training objective but the real world is freestyle and I find it ironic the IDPA which decries the 'gamers' in IPSC shooting plays so many games.

Since I came to the shooting sports only two years ago I was not around when IDPA was formed. I understand there was an intent to not be part of the USPSA equipment race and to develop more everyday carry gun scenarios. As a fairly new competitive shooter who has enjoyed playing both games it does seem there are IDPA rules which exist just to be different from USPSA which might need review.

A positive suggestion would be to let shooters reload whenever and however they deem appropriate. Tactical reloads were taught to me to be used when there was a lull in the fighting and I was behind cover. I have also been taught to reload whenever I can so the gun does not go to slidelock in the middle of a fight. I do not think it prudent for IDPA to instill a bad habit just because it has been known to happen.

Forget tactical priority and sequence. The most immediate threat may not be nearest or the one furthest to the right or left.

I would find it more enjoyable and better training if these suggestions were implemented. But of course I am biased. I shoot CDP and my .45 needs feeding often.

Finally, thank you Mark for starting the thread. I have no interest in the IDPA v USPSA fights but am always willing to add to the potentially constructive dialogue.

[Sam]

Mark, I shoot both IDPA and USPSA. And compete in 2 divisions in each of these sports. I also run the local IDPA matches for my club. I shoot alot and I hear alot of other shooters. I share your concern and thank you for asking for opinions

Here is what I would change. Discontinue all tactical dogma associated with scoring in matches. The rules need to be hard and fast, not determined by the opinion of the S/O. We can't be tactically correct and shoot for a time weighted score while we are doing it. One or the other will suffer. IDPA does a good job of limiting guns and gear and stage design to keep things practical, that is all that is needed in my opinion. Anything past that just causes confusion and frustration.

FTDR needs to be dropped entirely. It is an arbitrary "catch all" rule that can cost a shooter the entire match. It isn't envoked very often, but it's still out there lurking in the back of my head as I'm trying to shoot a stage the fastest way.

IDPA nees to adopt this attitude: If it is important enough to be against the rules, then it needs to be in the rules. And if it ain't against the rules, it's legal.

In a word, Freestyle.

And accept that in a game, gaming happens.

I think Ken's Corner addressed this topic pretty well in the last issue of "Tactical Journal". (Maybe they should change the name to something else.) The problem in getting people to change their view on tactics vs. rules of the game is that the sport was established at least partially on the grounds that it was the real practical shooting sport.

If a local club wants to award points for tactics, give every one in the peanut gallery a set of numbers between 1 and 10 and they can all hold them up at the end of each run as though the shooter were ice skating.

I'm not flaming the sport. I happen to like it. But since you asked, this is what I would change to improve it.

[John Dunn]

Some things I would change:

Knee pads are legal only if they can't be seen. Why? Must I embed gravel in my knee during a match that I wouldn't even notice during the adrenaline surge of a real encounter? Silly rule. Let folks wear pads.

Reloads with retention, tactical reloads, slide lock reloads, speed reloads...as there seems to be disagreement, even among the tactical gurus as to which is best, why not let the competitor decide. If you must penalize people for doing a one second speed reload because they left a round or two in the discarded mag, I would suggest a 0.25 second penalty per rd discarded be applied. Better yet, get rid of the penalties altogether. Teaching people to do slow, stumble prone tasks is tactically retarded IMHO. See the writings of Michael Bane and Walt Rauch on this one.

Shooting from cover, this is a decent idea, but why must we have a knee on the ground when a low squat is an easier position to get into and out of, and still keep the required portion of your body behind cover? Dumb rule. Change it.

Sight pictures, let's leave them banned but allow airgunning. Those who gripe that airgunning doesn't "look" tactical shall remain free to kick the airgunners butt during the match by outshooting the airgunners. Either way, let's have a written rule (see Sam's post above).

FTDR should be renamed "Nanny-Nanny-Boo-Boo", and should pass into history.

I think the FTDR makes a travesty of the defensive shooting sport, and hence the FTDR should technically earn a DQ per the LGB.

[smokshwn]

Mark,

It's late so sorry for the short reply with little detail.

In a sentence I would change:

DROP THE WHOLE THIS IS THE "TACTICAL" WAY TO DO IT BS!

I have been to training at H&K, Gunsite, and Trident Concepts. I have taken multiple classes from each of them and I practice/receive team and individual tactical training every month. There is no consensus on the most effective reload, movement scheme, kneel, squat, stand, run, jump, kick, scratch, poke method out there. Therefore I see it as impossible to try to limit a sport to a few of those methods. In the real world we will have our equipment (gun holster etc.), our environment (stage design), and whatever rules of engagement govern us. From there we will have to solve the problem in the most immediate/effective way possible. Let the rulebook and the sport reflect this. Set up a situation stipulate the rules clearly and let the shooter solve the problem.

If a course designer would like to setup a stage to specifically target a task or a skill (reloads, shooting position, etc.) let that be part of the stage design. Keep the actual skill performance out of the rulebook.

I am very much in agreement with Sam in that the rules should address equipment divisions, scoring classification, stage design, safety, and organizational structure.

Oh yeah, and increase your club's safety officer salary by 500% (oh shit 500 x 0 is still 0 isn't it)

Take care, Craig

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

The one thing I have wanted to see in IDPA since I started shotting the game is no walk through.

If they wish it to be "Tactical" which it never will be, there should be a course description given and then the statement, solve the problem. All stages should be blind stages with the SOs and those that have shot it working the targets.

As long as it is a private company, the whole discussion is a moot point.

Best to you all on this holiday,

Regards,

[MikeyG23]

Several things come to mind:

Get rid of the choreography. Set a course of fire and let the shooters solve the problem applying (evenly and fairly) all IDPA rules. Quit telling shooters they have to perform a tac load here and any IDPA legal reload there. Let the shooter figure it out and penalize him if he violates the rules.

Get an elected rather than selected BOD. I realize this is Bill's game and I personally think we all owe him our gratitude for getting it started but it's time for the game to mature and the only way I see that happening is for the membership to have active voice in what goes on and how things are done. I don't think this will ever happen but IMHO it's the only way the sport will ever properly mature.

The knee pad rule needs to be done away with. I've got bad knees as do several of the guys I shoot with. How is making us risk further damage "leveling" the playing field or giving us a competitive advantage?

Revise the rules so that they are objective rather that subjective. Get rid of the FTDR for the same reason.

Have a procedure for dealing with SO's who make repeated, arbitrary, bad calls on penalties. I recently went through an SO class and the one thing that was stressed was that all doubt should go to the shooter. Sadly, I see this isn't always the case.

Of all the ideas I have put forth here I believe the one thing that could bring about the most positive change is for the BOD to be elected. They would be much more in tune with the membership if they came from the membership. I don't have an answer as to how to do this without unfairly cutting Bill out both morally and financially but it's something to consider.

[Sam]

Oh Baby! I personally think the idea of concealed knee pads, elbow pads, shin guards, and body armor is awesome!

No kidding! I think this would add a whole new level of enjoyment to the sport. You shouldn't have to wear it, but you should be allowed to. Think of the R&D value to the compamies who make the stuff.

[Mayonaise]

Why don't you guys just rename it USPSA Jr. ?

Kneepads - Sorry, I don't like the idea of being at a match with people that look like a bunch of roofers.

Choreography - I agree to some extent. It's all about COF design. You get what the MD wants/likes to do 90% of the time. I like to see people sort it out and shoot it different ways. Sometimes I like to force them to perform a reload to break up the rhythm and make them think. It's all good IMO.

Forced kneeling at low cover is a stability rule and should stay IMO. Same reason why kneeling should be at the end of a COF so you don't put the slower moving folks at a greater disadvantage. Same reason there's a 10yd movement limit.

Speed reloads. Another dead horse topic. How much ammo do you carry? How much are you willing to leave behind? blah blah blah. Or take it away and bump the min round count and see how precious each bullet becomes.

If you have a sport that requires use of cover there's always going to be tough calls to make. Deal with it.

Move 10mm back to CDP for the sole reason that it will shut my good friend John Forsyth up. For a little while anyway.

[ChuckS]

Could someone show me where there is a rule about kneepads in the book?

[Bruce]

Allow 9x23 and 10mm in CDP.

[Carlos]

Sam wrote: "Discontinue all tactical dogma associated with scoring in matches"

Agree 100%

-Drop the so-called "tactical reload", in fact:

-drop "tactical" - as if it is the last word (see above, re: dogma)

-drop the FTDR as it is too subjective

-drop subjectivity & adhere to set rules. You follow them, or you do not. Anyone ever here of a pissing contest at an IDPA match over a subjective call by an SO? I have.

-let the shooter figure out the COF; in other words, make it more freestyle.

-drop the ".45 only" for CDP & simply adopt a .40 cal min./165 power floor

I enjoy IDPA & it is OK right now. However, it could be a whole lot better.

D.

[Allgoodhits]

Tactically speaking, how many of us walk around wearing ear protection and ballistic eye protection. Why not permit the knee pads as a precaution from an unnecessary, and preventable injury. Isn't that what the eye and ear protection is for? Hell even some of the targets are wearing armor, hence the failure drills!

Honestly I think the IDPA administrators, organizers and RO's do a good job all things considered. Afterall it is a shooting match, not a rubik's cube. I do however think that we should be able to reload, with cover, as we see fit. I also think that that laser sights should be permitted as long as the weapon can be holstered and worn ala IDPA. Tactically speaking, if I could and the situation dictated I would always use a Crimson Trace (CTC) equiped gun. A "J" frame S&W is a very good "real" carry gun when equiped with CTC grips.

Regarding gaming. We all game. Most "gaming" performed is within the rules. Why else would anyone really use a GLOCK 34 in IDPA. When the match is over they would place their "defensive" pistol in their bag and carry their GLOCK 26. Not picking on the GLOCK guys but this is a clear example of how we all "set our own stage" for a better performance, using whatever technique we can and whatever equipment we can to do better.

Three things to never forget in order to score better. The shooting needs to be done quickly, but they only score the holes and the holes in the center count more!

Happy Thanksgiving and give thanks to our troops who for a couple hundred years they have insured us of the 2nd amendment future in this country.

MJ

[Steve Moneypenny]

Put all the unwritten rules in the book!!!!

Allow knee pads completely or ban them, this "your wearing shorts so you don't burn your ass off so you can't save your knees is ASSANINE. i mean if someones shooting at me... who cares if i come up bloody knee'd but it's a game one for which i have bled for many times just because i like shorts!

Leave the kneeling behind cover, come on, who squats when being shot at.. but it should also be mandated that one should not have to move great distances after kneeling.

10mm back to CDP ... why is the PF floor so low in there anyway... 175 or 180 sounds more like ammo not girly stuff watered down. almost all ball will make 180 PF

[Joe D]

Allow the .45GAP in CDP. Bill W. the 45ACP does not need your protection. Let it stand on it's own. Better yet allow the .40 S&W. I have often wondered how it is able to make Major in IPSC and not in IDPA.

Bill Wilson bashing mode off.

I would like to see Major and Minor PFs in ESP and SSP. The 125 PF for SSP and ESP is not realistic. The time punishment for hits outside of the "0" area should be increased for Minor. Have not done any study, but 1.0 and 2.0 sec. for Minor might work. Major would have .5 and 1.5. This might be too complicated but one could use a 145 PF for 9mm Major and 165 for everything else. A miss should be 5 sec., not 2.5.

[davidwiz]

Bring the saftey up to the level of USPSA/IPSC. Meaning, as it now stands under the IDPA rulebook, a competitor can sweep themselves, point a loaded gun at someone else, etc. and not get DQ'ed. That is unacceptable.

Also, stop using subjective rules, like "failure to do right". There is no definition of what that is, and it changes from SO to SO.

[jhgtyre]

The main thing I would change is the "I have a letter from up on the mountain" type of attitude towards the rules. If it isn't in the book and the powers that be want it to be a rule print a new book. If you don't want to print a new book come out with updates that are official and mailed to each and every member. Do that on a yearly or quarterly basis and then print a new book every couple of years to keep it all under control.

Secondly I would ditch the FTDR. That rule is obviously a catch-all intended to punish those who out think the course designer. If the rules don't cover it and the competitor does whatever "gamey" thing that gets the SO's feathers in a ruffle there shouldn't be a penalty. Being clever is a survival skill not a punishable offense.

Squatting should be allowed for the reasons already stated.

Mag changes should be competitors choice as to when and where. They should also be of a type chosen by the competitor.

Airgunning should be allowed and the pretense that there are not "individual walk throughs" should be dropped. Every time a competitor goes down range to brass or tape they are getting a walk through. Every time a competitor sees someone else shoot the stage they are getting a walk through. If you really want surprise stages the earlier suggestion that only staff and competitors who have already shot the stage be allowed downrange is the way to go. Even then onlookers are counting shots and noting positions so they are going to have an advantage over the guys who go first.

Knee pads are safety gear. This is a game and it should be played as safely as possible. To do otherwise is pure foolishness.

Since we are currently living in the post ban era a division that allows standard capacity mags would be nice.

Draw from concealment all of the time. Even with summers in AZ I can tolerate wearing a vest for the brief period of time that it takes to shoot a COF.

-ld

[Nik Habicht]

Eliminate FTDR.

Eliminate local rules --- other than safety restrictions imposed by host ranges.

Allow kneepads and if the course requires prone, elbow pads. I know they're not tactical --- but I'd like to continue to go home unhurt.

Tactical reload? I'm fine with it --- but performing any other reload should only result in a procedural. I'm thinking three seconds is enough to allow for the difference, but if testing reveals that we need to set the penalty at some other number, that's o.k. This would allow competitors to use any reload that they've trained with and would choose to use, while eliminating most of the speed advantages of either the slidelock reload or the slide down reload. I realize that Master class shooters will have less time variation between reload types than novices, but I'm sure something fairly equitable could be worked out....

I'm o.k. with tightly choreographed courses where everyone shoots it in the same manner --- but I'd also like to see some stages that are more freestyle.

I'm o.k. with no sight pictures --- as long as it's before the buzzer sounds. Covering targets and threat scanning at the end should be permissible.

I'm o.k. with one knee down for low cover --- but it ought to be at the end of a stage, or used as a start position only on short courses, where the entire stage can be shot from kneeling.

While I agree that it's an unlikely scenario, I'd like there to be the possibility of a stage where targets would be engaged at more than eighteen yards, freestyle.

I'd like there to be a division in which guns equipped with lasers and flashlights could play. I'm not inclined to approve red dots --- but if someone could make a solid argument in favor, I might be persuaded.

Having the 10mm and 9x23 play in ESP/SSP seems silly --- they should probably be lumped in with the .45.

All stages should be shot from concealment --- unless that's an unrealistic start (think start laying flat in bed) or there's a safety issue (perhaps a car start).

[JFD]

"Put all the unwritten rules in the book!!!! "

I couldn't agree more.

I quit shooting IDPA because I got so sick of SOs making up rules on a whim. I've gotten lots of penalties, but have never found rules in the book to back them up. Asking to see the rule seems to freak out many SOs and immediately gets you pegged as a "gamer" who needs as many made-up penalties as possible applied in the upcoming stages. If the BOD doesn't want it allowed, then put it in the rulebook, otherwise it's allowed.

Get rid of FTDR. To me, this translates into "I'm too lazy to write a real rulebook".

Get rid of the IPSC bashing in the rulebook. Totally unprofessional.

I can handle this is a different sport with different rules, but please let me speed load with an empty mag and a round in the chamber. There's already a rule for dropping a mag with rounds left in it, so this is a no brainer.

Add major/minor scoring in all divisions. Who the heck is going to shoot a Major PF .38 Super or 9mm without a comp, so there's no need for a ".40 cal minimum for major" rule. Increase the PF for major if you want.

I'd be happy enough if SOs were trained to the standard of "if it isn't in the rulebook, then it isn't a rule". I'd shoot IDPA in a heartbeat if this was the case.

[Sac Law Man]

Make the 165 power factor for all 45's not just CDP...

Change the classification system to something similiar to USPSA. Too many guys are shooting at a class lower than they should be. They rarely shoot the classifier and contine to win their class at macthes.

Bump the 1st place winner up in a sanctioned match regardless of how many shooters there are.

Change the scoring for the different divisions. When you need 91.75 to score master in CDP, in the 80's for ESP and only 98 for SSP thats crazy. Although the different divisions arent shooting against each other, every major IDPA match always make mention of who shot the lowest score..

[banjobart]

I just waded through this entire morass...my question is the same as several others; WHERE THE HELL IS THE KNEEPAD RULE?

I just read the rule book five more times (readings 55-60) and cannot find it anywhere!

Please state the page and pargraph number.

Thank you.

[MoNsTeR]

I don't shoot IDPA, so take this for what it's worth.

If you take these suggestions to heart, i.e. codify the rules, delete the FTDR, allow sensible tactics, embrace the freestyle concept, etc etc etc... what's left? What ultimately distinguishes IDPA other than all these ridiculous rules? Are differently-shaped scoring zones, time/seconds down scoring system, 18rd limit/2-mags-on-belt limit, and rules against race gear really enough to justify IDPA's existence?

My own decision not to play in this particular sandbox is based upon personally concluding that retained reloads, SO discretion in penalties, tactical dogma and "my way or the highway" COF's, etc etc etc, are not sand in the works, not flaws in an otherwise viable system. They are, in fact, essential to the character of the sport, the spot welds in its armor so to speak. Take them away, and you lay bare the ultimate triviality of the IDPA/IPSC schism.

Don't get me wrong, I would like nothing more than for someone to convince me that I am mistaken, so I can go out and buy a legal holster and pouches, and have a whole extra set of matches to go to But from where I sit (at an admittedly safe distance) it looks like the whole point of the game is to be silly, dogmatic, and rigid.

[Duane Thomas]

Shooting from cover, this is a decent idea, but why must we have a knee on the ground when a low squat is an easier position to get into and out of, and still keep the required portion of your body behind cover? Dumb rule. Change it.

I have to agree with that one. At last year's state championships, we had a stage shot around a car. We actually had two SOs - I kid you not - one to watch the shooter and one to make sure he had a knee on the ground while shooting. And yes, I did get a procedural - after shooting the stage faster than anyone else (on my squad, and, I think, at the match). I'm not implying the two are related, they aren't, but after a smokin' run, it did suck to get the ol' 3-seconder added even though I was using cover well.

Another example. This past weekend we had a stage where you had to shoot over the top of the hood of a car mockup. (Yes, I know technically we should have shot around it, hey, I didn't design the stage or write the course description.) I'm short enough (and here's where all the tall guys get to laugh) I couldn't keep a knee on the ground and shoot over the hood without actually putting my biceps over the hood and even then it was a stretch. Great use of cover, right? But by God I had a knee on the ground, it's good to keep the truly important things in perspective. Obviously IDPA doesn't have the "Lisa Rule." (If Lisa Munson ran up to a barricade, would she be able to shoot over it?)

I understand the rationale behind the "one knee on the ground" thing. It's because, if there's an option of shooting over an object or around its side, they want to force you to shoot around. Because shooting over the top necessarily exposes your cranium to incoming fire from the eye sockets up, where shooting around the side can be executed while exposing only a sliver of your face. But in that case, make the rule: "Competitors must shoot around the side of cover if that option is available."

I have to admit, though, I am still a bit nonplussed by this whole "crouching isn't tactical" thing. I was first taught the concept of crouching to take advantage of low cover in 1982 during Army Basic Combat Training, by Vietnam veteran drill sergeants at Fort Jackson, South Carolina. And they didn't call it the "gamer crouch." They called it "rice paddy prone."