Can you miss fast enough to do good?

[flack jacket]

By the way you realty had to be there to appreciate just how hard the shooting was at this years nationals..

Made last years stages look like a 5 yard hose fest

I agree Los, Less "flow" as per our conversation, As I shot the Open match, I shot 92% of the points and caught total 50 points in penalties. 30 of which are mikes.

Here's a little data I found interesting. As I compared times to the shooters above me, it reinforced it's still still a game of speed and accuracy.

I squadded with a buddy and GM Jojo V. I'm still alot slower but similar points (in fact better points factoring in penalties) His overall time 280 mine 337.....Due to comstock/hit factor scoring. We still had a 49 place difference overall due to better time.

I'm still on the pursuit to get faster and more efficient, in which I see is moving, engagement and transition. Not necessarily trigger speed or splits. .

[motosapiens]

I'm still on the pursuit to get faster and more efficient, in which I see is moving, engagement and transition. Not necessarily trigger speed or splits. .

preach it bruthah!

I worked area 1 and the last 2 nationals, so I got to see a LOT of shooters running the same stage. Many of the top guys (nils, TGO, bob krogh, and others) had pretty normal sounding splits, they just didn't waste *any* time, and they got their hits. I think any B shooter has fast enough splits (in terms of trigger speed) to compete at the highest level.

Edited October 1, 2013 by motosapiens

[juan]

I'm still on the pursuit to get faster and more efficient, in which I see is moving, engagement and transition. Not necessarily trigger speed or splits. .

preach it bruthah!

I worked area 1 and the last 2 nationals, so I got to see a LOT of shooters running the same stage. Many of the top guys (nils, TGO, bob krogh, and others) had pretty normal sounding splits, they just didn't waste *any* time, and they got their hits. I think any B shooter has fast enough splits (in terms of trigger speed) to compete at the highest level.

the problem is because of there accuacy at speed they can matntain faster splits to a smaller tgt,

I get real close to them on easy wide open tgts but squeeze that tgt down with no shoots and hard cover and my splits get really slow. where it seams that they can run a higher rate of fire through a dificult array

[flack jacket]

I'm still on the pursuit to get faster and more efficient, in which I see is moving, engagement and transition. Not necessarily trigger speed or splits. .

preach it bruthah!

I worked area 1 and the last 2 nationals, so I got to see a LOT of shooters running the same stage. Many of the top guys (nils, TGO, bob krogh, and others) had pretty normal sounding splits, they just didn't waste *any* time, and they got their hits. I think any B shooter has fast enough splits (in terms of trigger speed) to compete at the highest level.

the problem is because of there accuacy at speed they can matntain faster splits to a smaller tgt,

I get real close to them on easy wide open tgts but squeeze that tgt down with no shoots and hard cover and my splits get really slow. where it seams that they can run a higher rate of fire through a dificult array

I wouldn't say "problem", I believe just a greater level of confidence in their ability in addressing that tight array. Which can be misconstrued has "double tapping" without regard of aiming.

We've all read in Brian's or Ben's book that we need to practice on our opportunities, not what we are already good at.

[shred]

I'm still on the pursuit to get faster and more efficient, in which I see is moving, engagement and transition. Not necessarily trigger speed or splits. .

preach it bruthah!

I worked area 1 and the last 2 nationals, so I got to see a LOT of shooters running the same stage. Many of the top guys (nils, TGO, bob krogh, and others) had pretty normal sounding splits, they just didn't waste *any* time, and they got their hits. I think any B shooter has fast enough splits (in terms of trigger speed) to compete at the highest level.

the problem is because of there accuacy at speed they can matntain faster splits to a smaller tgt,

I get real close to them on easy wide open tgts but squeeze that tgt down with no shoots and hard cover and my splits get really slow. where it seams that they can run a higher rate of fire through a dificult array

This is probably what separated the M's from the top GMs at that match. The SS guys are whapping 2 A's on a 1/2 A-zone no-shoot combo at 15 yards just about as fast as the M put two alphas on the wide open target next to it. They only noticeably slow down for pure upper A/B shots and then not very much.

But... listen to what they talk about sometime... it's not the splits, it's the transitions.

[motosapiens]

The SS guys are whapping 2 A's on a 1/2 A-zone no-shoot combo at 15 yards just about as fast as the M put two alphas on the wide open target next to it. They only noticeably slow down for pure upper A/B shots and then not very much.

But... listen to what they talk about sometime... it's not the splits, it's the transitions.

That differs from my experience. I was pretty surprised by how much the supersquad iron-sights shooters slowed down their splits for the more difficult targets. on targets where 2/3 or so was covered by no-shoots, they were nowhere near as fast as A and B shooters on wide open targets. However they didn't miss nearly as much as the less skilled shooters.

But maybe you're talking about the open guys. I admit, I didn't really pay attention to open.

[spanky]

Can you miss fast enough to do good well?

[carlosa]

The SS guys are whapping 2 A's on a 1/2 A-zone no-shoot combo at 15 yards just about as fast as the M put two alphas on the wide open target next to it. They only noticeably slow down for pure upper A/B shots and then not very much.

But... listen to what they talk about sometime... it's not the splits, it's the transitions.

That differs from my experience. I was pretty surprised by how much the supersquad iron-sights shooters slowed down their splits for the more difficult targets. on targets where 2/3 or so was covered by no-shoots, they were nowhere near as fast as A and B shooters on wide open targets. However they didn't miss nearly as much as the less skilled shooters.

But maybe you're talking about the open guys. I admit, I didn't really pay attention to open.

Guys like Dave and Travis tomasie (not sure about nills) don't drop allot of points..

3-4 Charlie's tops..

[Ssanders224]

The SS guys are whapping 2 A's on a 1/2 A-zone no-shoot combo at 15 yards just about as fast as the M put two alphas on the wide open target next to it. They only noticeably slow down for pure upper A/B shots and then not very much.

But... listen to what they talk about sometime... it's not the splits, it's the transitions.

That differs from my experience. I was pretty surprised by how much the supersquad iron-sights shooters slowed down their splits for the more difficult targets. on targets where 2/3 or so was covered by no-shoots, they were nowhere near as fast as A and B shooters on wide open targets. However they didn't miss nearly as much as the less skilled shooters.

But maybe you're talking about the open guys. I admit, I didn't really pay attention to open.

Guys like Dave and Travis tomasie (not sure about nills) don't drop allot of points..

3-4 Charlie's tops..

Huh??

You must mean per stage?

[JD45]

I'm sure it's rare, but how about not even engaging targets?

At the GA state shoot, the top guys didn't even try to shoot 2 drop-turners on a stage. And it was the smart thing to do.

Edited October 2, 2013 by JD45

[JakeMartens]

I'm sure it's rare, but how about not evening engaging targets?

At the GA state shoot, the top guys didn't even try to shoot 2 drop-turners on a stage. And it was the smart thing to do.

It is not rare on drop turners/disappearing targets especially if you have to wait on it or there is nothing else to shoot while it activates

[carlosa]

The SS guys are whapping 2 A's on a 1/2 A-zone no-shoot combo at 15 yards just about as fast as the M put two alphas on the wide open target next to it. They only noticeably slow down for pure upper A/B shots and then not very much.

But... listen to what they talk about sometime... it's not the splits, it's the transitions.

That differs from my experience. I was pretty surprised by how much the supersquad iron-sights shooters slowed down their splits for the more difficult targets. on targets where 2/3 or so was covered by no-shoots, they were nowhere near as fast as A and B shooters on wide open targets. However they didn't miss nearly as much as the less skilled shooters.

But maybe you're talking about the open guys. I admit, I didn't really pay attention to open.

Guys like Dave and Travis tomasie (not sure about nills) don't drop allot of points..

3-4 Charlie's tops..

Huh??

You must mean per stage?

Yeah.. Per stage..

Top guys are aiming pretty hard..

[JakeMartens]

1:30-2:00

pretty much sums it up

[JakeMartens]

30 alphas, 2 charlies

[flack jacket]

1:30-2:00

pretty much sums it up

Boom,

[Chris iliff]

Can you miss fast enough to do good well?

Ouch, of course I meant "well".

Edited to add: or is it "gooder"?

Edited October 8, 2013 by Chris iliff

[motosapiens]

I'm sure it's rare, but how about not even engaging targets?

At the GA state shoot, the top guys didn't even try to shoot 2 drop-turners on a stage. And it was the smart thing to do.

I think it's rare because most stage designers don't use disappearing targets these days. I've seen them in IDPA, but I'm not sure I've ever seen one in a sanctioned USPSA match. Instead i see lots of clamshells and swingers that remain visible at rest.

[sperman]

I see disappearing targets all the time in this area.

As far as the GA state match goes, the math didn't add up. If you shot 6 alphas on the 2 targets (it was best 3 hits) you had a very slight points advantage. Throw in 1 or 2 c's, and it's a push at best. Don't get all 6 shots off in time, or have 3 or 4 c's, or mess up the reload, or have any other problem, and now you're giving up points. The risk vs. reward didn't add up.

[BSeevers]

I am afraid to reverse engineer my penalties cause I am pretty sure my placement would be right on my Goal.

I don't usually dwell on negative. It was a hard match. It was a hard match for everybody. I wasn't as prepared as I liked. I was distracted.

I am already planning next year. Ok that's where I should be

You know the answer to your question but I will add until you can shoot as fast as the SS, it doesn't matter

[lawboy]

I am a lowly B shooter who will make A with the next classification cycle so I don't know much. What I do know is that you must be fast to be near or at the top. HOWEVER, you also must be accurate. between the two, I see more fast shooters being beaten by slightly slower shooters than I see accurate shooters being beaten by slightly faster shooters. Here is an example of what I see locally. 160-point stage. Fast shooter runs it in 15.34, 132 pts. with a Mike/no-shoot. Accurate shooter runs it in 17.56, clean, with 153 pts.

Fast shooter = 7.3011 hf. Accurate shooter = 8.7129. In a six-stage match, the fast shooter will beat the accurate shooter on two stages by a small margin but the accurate shooter will be on top by larger margins in four of the six. This is a year-round cycle, 2-4 matches a month, year in and year out. I shoot with the same guys and there are several who fall into both categories. At the end of the day, it is target shooting and you need to score points to win. There are also a handful of local guys who are Damn fast and Damn accurate. Guess what ... they win ALL THE TIME.

Edited October 8, 2013 by lawboy

[blueorb]

I am a lowly B shooter who will make A with the next classification cycle so I don't know much. What I do know is that you must be fast to be near or at the top. HOWEVER, you also must be accurate. between the two, I see more fast shooters being beaten by slightly slower shooters than I see accurate shooters being beaten by slightly faster shooters. Here is an example of what I see locally. 160-point stage. Fast shooter runs it in 15.34, 132 pts. with a Mike/no-shoot. Accurate shooter runs it in 17.56, clean, with 153 pts.

Fast shooter = 7.3011 hf. Accurate shooter = 8.7129. In a six-stage match, the fast shooter will beat the accurate shooter on two stages by a small margin but the accurate shooter will be on top by larger margins in four of the six. This is a year-round cycle, 2-4 matches a month, year in and year out. I shoot with the same guys and there are several who fall into both categories. At the end of the day, it is target shooting and you need to score points to win. There are also a handful of local guys who are Damn fast and Damn accurate. Guess what ... they win ALL THE TIME.

I am not sure I completely agree with this. There is definitely a fine line where more points just don't matter. Look at this as an example (from this past weekends NC Sectional):

Stage 9 results. That is me at 4th place with 140 points. Look at me compared to 2nd place GM. I shot 24 more points but was 4.4 sec slower. 24 pts is, IMO, a ton of points. Look at 5th. I shot 14 more pts than him and was only 1 sec slower. I barely beat him. As it turns out, contrary to what is always stated on this forum, I would have been much better off hosing away to drop 2-3 seconds and take far fewer points.

Place Name USPSA Class Points Penalty Time Hit Factor Stg Pts Stage Percent

GM 132 0 17.87 7.3867 140.0000 100.00%

GM 116 0 16.64 6.9712 132.1250 94.38%

M 132 0 19.00 6.9474 131.6740 94.05%

M 140 0 21.18 6.6100 125.2792 89.49%

A 126 0 20.06 6.2812 119.0475 85.03%

Here's another one. That's me in 7th place. Again, quite a few more pts than 2nd and 3rd but 4-5 secs slower. I would have been better off to shave that time off and accept fewer pts.

Place Name USPSA Class Points Penalty Time Hit Factor Stg Pts Stage Percent 1

GM 148 0 21.62 6.8455 160.0000 100.00% 2

M 142 0 22.37 6.3478 148.3672 92.73% 3

GM 144 0 23.33 6.1723 144.2653 90.17% 4

M 156 0 26.02 5.9954 140.1306 87.58% 5

A 150 0 25.44 5.8962 137.8120 86.13% 6

M 152 0 26.39 5.7598 134.6239 84.14% 7

M 156 0 27.38 5.6976 133.1701 83.23%

I went into this match with a mindset to slow down and get more points (I tend to try and shoot way too fast for my skill level and drop a lot of points). For the most part I did that but still crapped a few stages which killed me. However, it's obvious that I need to find that fine line of speed and accuracy. I slowed down too much. So much so that even higher points didn't really help me.

Frustrating sport sometimes..

Edited October 9, 2013 by blueorb

[sperman]

Shannon,

You can look at those numbers both ways. In the first example above, the 2nd place shooter was over a second quicker, but 16 points down cost him a stage win.

I don't have any good answers. I've had the same struggles you describe, trying to find the balance between speed and points.

[motosapiens]

Yeah, the example 2 posts above is a GREAT example. The 2nd place GM missed fast, and as a result didn't win. The first place guy was slower, but more accurate, and won.

Sure, you can miss fast enough to beat people a class or 2 lower, but that's generally not the same as 'winning'.

There are large batches of empirical testing that goes on every week. Just look at the results of any major match, and look what percentage of the available points the overall winner shot. Nils shot 94% of the available points at nationals. I bet lots of people shot 80 or 85% of the available points, and every single one of them lost.

[lawboy]

I see your point. I agree with you. There is a line. And, as I said, you must be fast and accurate. But, in my experience, accuracy is more fundamental than speed.

Edited October 9, 2013 by lawboy

[JonSnow]

Stage 9 results. That is me at 4th place with 140 points. Look at me compared to 2nd place GM. I shot 24 more points but was 4.4 sec slower. 24 pts is, IMO, a ton of points. Look at 5th. I shot 14 more pts than him and was only 1 sec slower. I barely beat him. As it turns out, contrary to what is always stated on this forum, I would have been much better off hosing away to drop 2-3 seconds and take far fewer points.

Place Name USPSA Class Points Penalty Time Hit Factor Stg Pts Stage Percent

GM 132 0 17.87 7.3867 140.0000 100.00%

GM 116 0 16.64 6.9712 132.1250 94.38%

M 132 0 19.00 6.9474 131.6740 94.05%

M 140 0 21.18 6.6100 125.2792 89.49%

A 126 0 20.06 6.2812 119.0475 85.03%

24 points is a lot of points, but 4.54 seconds is also a LOT of time. Percentages matter, you shot 21% more points in 27% more time, hence the lower power factor. What trips people up, I think, is that as times get faster and faster, small improvements become more and more important. Shaving a second off a 20 second run is one thing (5.2% improvement), shaving it off a 10 second run is another (11.1% improvement).

Edited October 9, 2013 by JonSnow