Which would be likely to further increase participation in Revolver Di

[Bubber]

Tis True Elkjustice, It will all breakdown to Stage design. At our local matches it seems that they are more into designing a good stage rather than just shooting a lot of rounds. Last month Chris C. shot the 8 shot against the other Revo shooters. He would have an advantage on one part of a stage and on some stages no advantage was there, except for his shooting. I kept it close for me but he was just shooting better that day. And on the classifier he chose to reload after six as not to skew the classifier up. He shot an 86% (IIR). I shot it 0.17 seconds faster but with a miss, let's just say my butith hath been kickethd. Later rdd

[scottyinAZ]

EkuJustice I understand what your saying about the 6 shot guns to some degree. I do own 3 5" 625s. so I don't want to undermine the value of these guns. but I would rather own guns that I can shoot and enjoy in competition and have some safe queen 625s. I have given thought to shooting cough cough IDPA with the 625s....... there are more 627s in circulation and production. to be competitive in uspsa with old rules you needed a gun that was not being produced any longer. that sure cuts down on new people getting into the swing of it. its a keep up with the times change. in the 80s all action shooting was with revolvers, then they got the 1911s dialed in a bit and they dominated. revo was a dinosaur. then the double stack guns put the 1911 on the shelf. its always an evolution of equipment with any mechanical sport. we don't race 1976 Yamaha motorcycles because the 1979 was much better. the 627 is a better gun for uspsa. why stifle the division? no one wants to be forced into buying new guns. but if we kept the rules the same as day 1, where would we be as a shooting sport? im sure TGO can chime in about the evolutions of uspsa and equipment changes and rules....... its an ongoing evolution. time to update the revo division. im ready to shelf the 625s and pass them on to my kids as "relics" they are still RAD guns.

scott

[Gunjack]

Going to 8round minor would basically make the current 625 obsolete overnight as with 8roujd neutral stages the elimination if the standing reload will more than make up for minor scoring. Revolver will never be a vibrant division and is basically done by the same group of diehard guys. Making their equipment obsolete will not help the division

Agree. I could shoot my 627 at minor and beat up on the 625's, but could this happen? A manufacture then develops a 40SW 8 shot revolver? Probably already on some manufactures drawing table. The debate will be then to allow the 40SW 8 shots to become major. Oh yeah, it's already major and an easier argument to win than changing the capacity or rounds fired rule. Ops, there goes the 627. Leave the equipment race in the hands of the competitor, not the manufacture.

[kneelingatlas]

A manufacture then develops a 40SW 8 shot revolver? Probably already on some manufactures drawing table. The debate will be then to allow the 40SW 8 shots to become major.

I agree it's silly to start a new debate every time a new pistol comes to market, but what would be the debate? If the rule reads 6 shots Major or 8 shots minor, you can shoot your 8 shot .40, it's just scored minor, just like you can shoot your .40 1911 in SS with 10 rounds, it's just scored minor.

ETA: I don't shoot SS can a .40 hold ten rounds and still fit in the box?

Edited July 24, 2013 by kneelingatlas

[scottyinAZ]

the rules prior did not have a minimum caliber for major pf for revolver. so 8 shot major could be made with supers, specials or mags.

[JohnRodriguez]

a 8 shot .40? I don't think so. i would like the board to lower the limited 10 caliber from .40 to 357 sig or 38 special.

[pyrrhic3gun]

My two cents...make the change to 6Major/8Minor and see what happens. If USPSA is hesitant to change, put in a sunset clause that eliminates the change if participation standards are not met in a few years. But, don't make the standard unreachable.

Jhgtyre +1...my pleasure is NOT increased by standing reloads.

Eku...I think a true die-hard revo shooter will merely put their 6-shot in the safe and pull out the 8-shot they already have for ICORE (since they are TRULY die-hard revo shooters). :^)

777...don't forget all shooters in the Adam-12 2-gun league have to use "handles" like the cowboy shooters and dress the part. I wish I was still skinny enough go as HuggyBear in Starsky and Hutch, but I think Ponch from Chips is more my style these days. :^) Or maybe I'll just be the generic "suspect" in white undershirt, jeans, and shower-shoes (flip-flops for the uninitiated).

[71Commander]

My two cents...make the change to 6Major/8Minor and see what happens. If USPSA is hesitant to change, put in a sunset clause that eliminates the change if participation standards are not met in a few years. But, don't make the standard unreachable.

Jhgtyre +1...my pleasure is NOT increased by standing reloads.

Eku...I think a true die-hard revo shooter will merely put their 6-shot in the safe and pull out the 8-shot they already have for ICORE (since they are TRULY die-hard revo shooters). :^)

777...don't forget all shooters in the Adam-12 2-gun league have to use "handles" like the cowboy shooters and dress the part. I wish I was still skinny enough go as HuggyBear in Starsky and Hutch, but I think Ponch from Chips is more my style these days. :^) Or maybe I'll just be the generic "suspect" in white undershirt, jeans, and shower-shoes (flip-flops for the uninitiated).

Have you ever saw an Zoot Suit matches? Women are wearing high heels.

[dcloudy777]

I would totally shoot a major match in a short-sleeved shirt and tie with oversize aviator sunglasses if it meant getting a major pump/revolver match.

Sample rule set:

Adam-12 Revolver/Shotgun Match

Equipment divisions:

All divisions: Revolvers must conform with USPSA revolver division equipment rules, except where noted. Shotguns must be of 12 guage, and pump operated. Optical sights and porting/compensators are disallowed for all gun in all divisions. Shotguns will use lead shot size #6 or smaller only.

Classic Division: Revolvers are not allowed to use moonclips, speedloaders are allowed. Shotguns may not be capable of holding more than 5 rounds + 1 chambered round at any time.

Modern Division: Moonclips are allowed. Shotguns may not be capable of holding more than 9 rounds + 1 chambered round at any time.

Scoring:

Targets will be USPSA targets (metric or classic), knock down steel, and/or clay pigeons.

All Targets: Any target not engaged will incur a 5 second penalty, in addition to the appropriate penalty for no hits on that target.

Steel targets: May be engaged with either revolver or shotgun, and must fall to score. Any steel target not knocked over will incur a 10 second penalty.

Clay Pigeons: May be engaged with either revolver or shotgun, and must break to score. One "BB" hit is considered to be a break. Any unbroken clay will incur a 10 second penalty.

Cardboard Targets: May be engaged with revolver only. Each cardboard target requires two hits within the scoring area, or one hit within the A/B zone to neutralize without penalty.

Targets with one hit outside of the A/B zone will incur a 5 second penalty. Targets with no hits will incur a 10 second penalty.

Who's in?

Dan "Cochise" Overcast

Edited July 26, 2013 by dcloudy777

[wheelie]

How about allowing 8 shot revolvers in Single Stack? It'd be pretty fair, based on round capacity.

I'd still score by actual power factor.

[jhgtyre]

How about allowing 8 shot revolvers in Single Stack? It'd be pretty fair, based on round capacity.

I'd still score by actual power factor.

I don't think modifying an existing, and successful, division is acceptable. Revolver division is where 8 shot revolvers belong. Shunting them off into other divisions doesn't help revolver division at all.

-ld

[wheelie]

How about allowing 8 shot revolvers in Single Stack? It'd be pretty fair, based on round capacity.

I'd still score by actual power factor.

I don't think modifying an existing, and successful, division is acceptable. Revolver division is where 8 shot revolvers belong. Shunting them off into other divisions doesn't help revolver division at all.

-ld

All that would happen is to let revolvers shoot with the SS guns. 8 shot guns shooting with other 8 shot guns. Nothing there to destroy a class, just let more people shoot.

Letting 8 shot revolvers in the current revolver class does nothing but changes out the --single-- gun that is most competitive, from the 625 to a 627. If that's got to happen, at least let power factor be decided by actual power factor. (major and minor)

We'd have more revolvers shooting even if they ran in differrent classes. It'd give revolver shooters another class to shoot in.

Edited July 26, 2013 by wheelie

[jhgtyre]

How about allowing 8 shot revolvers in Single Stack? It'd be pretty fair, based on round capacity.

I'd still score by actual power factor.

I don't think modifying an existing, and successful, division is acceptable. Revolver division is where 8 shot revolvers belong. Shunting them off into other divisions doesn't help revolver division at all.

-ld

All that would happen is to let revolvers shoot with the SS guns. 8 shot guns shooting with other 8 shot guns. Nothing there to destroy a class, just let more people shoot.

Letting 8 shot revolvers in the current revolver class does nothing but changes out the --single-- gun that is most competitive, from the 625 to a 627. If that's got to happen, at least let power factor be decided by actual power factor. (major and minor)

We'd have more revolvers shooting even if they ran in differrent classes. It'd give revolver shooters another class to shoot in.

Of course the topic of this thread is:

Which would be likely to further increase participation in Revolver Division?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

As to your last paragraph. I almost agree. However it's a good thing to allow our current "customers" to have more options as well, agree? I don't have all the answers, I don't think anyone does, and I'm sure I haven't figured out all the ramifications.. but I will say this. I personally have shot a fair amount of revolver in IDPA- SSR and ESR with my 686 and 625 respectively. I also own a 627 which has yet to see much use yet. I like my minor loads because it's easy on my elbows... I'd love to see more folks shooting wheel guns. But there aren't many around my area... and part of the fun for me is competing with a bunch of people IN my division. So I don't shoot it. I'm not going to train my ass off to compete with a GM and maybe a couple B shooters using 5" 625s with my 686 speed loader gun. That for sure just won't happen.

OK. I'm happy to allow current customers input -- but we don't have a lot of current customers. So if there's a change to be made, that would bring out hundreds or thousands of new competitors (and that seems unlikely) I might be compelled to disregard current customers....

Would you go up against 625 owners with a moon-clipped 686 if the division was scored minor? I'm assuming for the sake of the question that you don't have access to a 625, but do own a 686 that would need to be cut for moonclips.....

I think we are on the same page for the most part... all good. I own a 625, 686, 617 and a 627. Maybe I'm an anal bastid but I don't think I'd want to cut down my 686 for moon clips for USPSA even though that would be pretty cool... my moon clip 686 costs would bring me close to a 627. Plus now I'd have a 686 that is no good for SSR. Yikes... difficult stuff.

Would I compete against a 625 with a moon clipped 686? If I could use short colts I bet the reloads would be damn close for sure. I think I'd be ok with that. But I already have a 627 for moon clips... If we think about it more and more- it gets more and more difficult to decide.

I'm not sure just how much we can improve attendance in revo... but if the current revo guys like the option of a 627 and people like me and maybe you some day are on the fringe of trying it out it's not a bad idea. But leaving the division as is not a good option... I agree, and like you said there is nothing to loose by changing.

Tough decisions for sure....

If you want to try it, I have a 5" moonclipped 686 with your choice of 6 or 7 shot cylinder. It might be an interesting experiment for you and you are welcome to use it Dave.

[Shadowrider]

I'm definitely not in favor of taking the entire division minor. Let the chrono decide where they belong, that's the way God intended things to be. I could live with 8 shot minor but still say leave it up to the chrono. If someone wants to compete with "buffalo .38s" or honest .357 mags, more power to them.

Edit: Letting the chrono decide would still allow the K/L frame crowd to play in major if they wanted. Just a thought...

Edited July 27, 2013 by Shadowrider

[COF]

Edit: Letting the chrono decide would still allow the K/L frame crowd to play in major if they wanted. Just a thought...

They can do that now

[caswellranch2013]

Do what ICORE did with Classic (6 shot running speedloaders), LTD is anything running moon clips, chrono for major/minor

[jhgtyre]

Do what ICORE did with Classic (6 shot running speedloaders), LTD is anything running moon clips, chrono for major/minor

ICORE has no major, only a power factor of 120, and limited it basically the same as open without ports or optics.

[Trebor Snave]

When you ask shooters in other divisions what it would take for them to shoot revolver, what is the response? I'm not talking about the guys who already shoots a 627 in Limited, or ICORE shooters, I'm talking about the newer guy shooting his Glock. What would it take for him to shoot a wheelgun? I think answering that question is the way to increase numbers in the division.

[caswellranch2013]

Do what ICORE did with Classic (6 shot running speedloaders), LTD is anything running moon clips, chrono for major/minor

ICORE has no major, only a power factor of 120, and limited it basically the same as open without ports or optics.

Sorry, PF was in regards to USPSA not ICORE

A69116

Edited July 30, 2013 by caswellranch2013